Hereness and a Home of Colors with Molly Crabapple and Reema A.

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[lina]: all right well hello molly welcome to
belongings

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[molly_crabapple]: hello and i’m so happy to be
here

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[lina]: thank you so much for joining us
were really excited to have you you know

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[lina]: for everybody listening molly crab apple is
one of my favorite people on earth she’s

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[lina]: an accomplished writer and artist and she’s
in new york city we’re so happy to

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[lina]: have her as a friend of kem
foundation she’s done so much work and collaboration

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[lina]: with us over the years and i
admire her work very much you should all

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[lina]: be looking at her work at her
books and we’ll be talking a lot about

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[lina]: what she’s done over the years and
the impact of home and belonging on her

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[lina]: work so before we begin i just
want to read a short bio of molly’s

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[lina]: incredible work ma crab apple is an
artist and writer based in new york she’s

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[lina]: the author of two books drawing blood
and brothers of the gun with maranhshem which

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[lina]: was long listed for a national book
award in two thousand eighteen her re portage

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[lina]: has published in the new york times
the new york review of books the paris

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[lina]: review vanity fair the guardian rolling stone
the new yorker and elsewhere her art is

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[lina]: in the permanent collections of the museum
of modern art her animations have been nominated

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[lina]: for three emmie’s and one and edward
are more muro award she got her start

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[lina]: as a journalist sketching on the front
lines of occupy wall street before covering with

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[lina]: words and art lebonese snipers labor struggles
in w quantanamobay the u s border american

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[lina]: prison greek refugee camps and the ravages
of hurricane maria and porto rico she even

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[lina]: once confronted donald trump and dub about
the exploitation of the workers building his golf

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[lina]: courses as an award winning animator she
has pioneered a new genera of live illustrated

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[lina]: explainer journalism collaborating with a c j
s amnesty international human rights watch and the

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[lina]: a c l u ah her animations
are in permanent display at the equal justice

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[lina]: initiatives legacy museum in montgomery alabama which
i’ve seen i’ve seen and they’re incredible so

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[lina]: welcome molly

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[molly_crabapple]: oh my god my pleasure to be
here

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[lina]: yeah so you know the first question
i wanted to start with i know that

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[lina]: you have just arrived from a trip
in eastern europe and ukraine and i wanted

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[lina]: to ask you about your trip and
about what you’ve seen why you there and

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[lina]: an update on the situation from your
point of view

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[molly_crabapple]: well i was originally

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[lina]: oh

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[molly_crabapple]: in eastern europe not to cover the
war in ukraine but because i’m writing a

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[molly_crabapple]: book about my great grandfather who was
a jewish socialist artist from bella ruse and

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[molly_crabapple]: i was trying to visit places where
his movement had been active in to places

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[molly_crabapple]: like abilnisan countusbut because i was very
near ukraine and because i have many friends

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[molly_crabapple]: that were journalists that were there i

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[lina]: no

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[molly_crabapple]: decided that

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[lina]: yeah

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[molly_crabapple]: i wanted to go and i wanted
to see the situation and so i went

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[molly_crabapple]: to and spent two weeks in live
and ossa and i also visited a bouche

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[molly_crabapple]: which is a town right outside of
kiev where that became famous when the russians

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[molly_crabapple]: did horrific massacres there and i mean
a few things struck me the first which

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[molly_crabapple]: is something that i’m ashamed to know
and doesn’t have to do with the war

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[molly_crabapple]: is what

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[lina]: i

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[molly_crabapple]: stunningly beautiful in great country ukraine is
i mean these cities were like vienna meet

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[molly_crabapple]: estan you know

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[lina]: yeah

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[molly_crabapple]: these

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[lina]: yeah

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[molly_crabapple]: these cities that were like everything stunning
and gold domed in the world odessa filled

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[molly_crabapple]: with fat lazy cats levive with the
most glamorous chicks and you know all with

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[molly_crabapple]: their blow outs and yelled nails you
know kiev with with the mikailovski church that

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[molly_crabapple]: was built in the nineties that looks
like something out of a fairy tale it’s

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[molly_crabapple]: so beautiful right so that was that
was the first my first sort of superficial

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[molly_crabapple]: thing the second thing is how the
war thanks to the cranian army and the

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[molly_crabapple]: health that gordon has been pushed back
to the east so the russians got all

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[molly_crabapple]: the way to the outskirts of the
the hell out of these towns like bortodanca

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[molly_crabapple]: that when i was there it reminded
me of something you would see in syria

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[molly_crabapple]: you know just apartment blocks that were
charred black and half collapsed in the centre

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[molly_crabapple]: you know the bits people’s homes just
kind of stuck to the sides like deretrasum

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[molly_crabapple]: but they have they have been pushed
back and so life was kind of in

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[molly_crabapple]: some ways returning to a quasi normal
in places like like i and especially levive

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[molly_crabapple]: but even the sort of quasi normal
it’s wrong to say that because every single

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[molly_crabapple]: person has lost something in the war
whether that’s something is that they’ve lost their

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[molly_crabapple]: friends whether that’s something is that they
have parents or grandparents in an area that’s

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[molly_crabapple]: being occupied or whether that something is
that their fifty nine year old dad has

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[molly_crabapple]: been drafted and

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[lina]: yeah

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[molly_crabapple]: has been sent to the front and
had like a week to wrap up his

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[molly_crabapple]: construction business anything that’s hard about normal
life things that we all have to deal

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[molly_crabapple]: with may be like taking care of
an ill and elderly parent anything like that

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[molly_crabapple]: has made so much harsher by the
war the other thing that struck me is

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[molly_crabapple]: how united ukrainians were in a commitment
to resist the invasion and in saying that

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[molly_crabapple]: no we don’t want this week reject
these lies that you know just because of

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[molly_crabapple]: history just because ukraine was part of
the zarist empire someone can come and bomb

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[molly_crabapple]: our cities and annex us i met
an old lady who told me that she

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[molly_crabapple]: would that she had learned what hate
feels like through this invasion and that she

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[molly_crabapple]: would and be prepared to kill an
occupier of herself you know i’m i just

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[molly_crabapple]: saw in western ukraine a country really
really really sure about what it wanted and

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[molly_crabapple]: really really really committed to resist

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[lina]: oh

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[molly_crabapple]: perialist violent invasion

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[lina]: it’s really striking the kinds of like
human pieces of stories that you’re telling and

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[lina]: i know that you’ve done this for
a really long time in so many different

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[lina]: places around the world and including in
the u s and for me it’s just

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[lina]: was so hard to watch the early
days of the uranian war because like you

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[lina]: said it did remind me so much
of syria and it also reminded me shocking

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[lina]: to see you know entire neighborhoods bombed
like that and looking like aleppo within three

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[lina]: or four days of the beginning of
the invasion you know shocking how fast things

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[lina]: moved on a lot of syrians also
were seeing kind of the same things it

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[lina]: was very traumatizing to watch as well
as feeling that you know so much you

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[lina]: know in terms of learning how to
do warfare quicker and more devastating way was

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[lina]: learned almost in syria and now is
being transferred other places in the world that

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[lina]: was very hard to actually absorb as
well

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[molly_crabapple]: absolutely and i talked to people a
lot about that and i told them you

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[molly_crabapple]: know also what i saw in syria
and how and what i saw listening to

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[molly_crabapple]: refuge jesus from syria and how one
of the russian army strategies is to make

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[molly_crabapple]: places uninhabitable so as to create refuge
crisises to make it so that no one

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[molly_crabapple]: can have a kid there because it’s
just too dangerous with the bombing m bakeries

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[molly_crabapple]: to bomb schools to bomb hospitals and
then to lie and say that the people

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[molly_crabapple]: that they’re bombing did it to themselves
exact same thing happening in ukraine whereas you

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[molly_crabapple]: know russian propaganda lie and claim that
syrians gas themselves you ridiculous lie they would

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[molly_crabapple]: say the same about ukraine uraneuranians bomb
themselves that or that they murdered their own

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[molly_crabapple]: people in but it’s the same type
of prop and that’s being used it’s exactly

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[molly_crabapple]: the same

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[lina]: yeah it’s terrible and i think that
it will continue going but it’s really great

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[lina]: to hear about the stories of ukrainian
solidarity and also people being able to go

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[lina]: back to their homes and to rebuild
and find i’m kind of normals and we

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[lina]: hope that the entire invasion and war
will end soon

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[molly_crabapple]: absolutely

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[lina]: yes

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[molly_crabapple]: another thing that that struck me is
so way that right now that uranian refugees

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[molly_crabapple]: are being treated by neighboring countries is
really good and it ought to be a

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[molly_crabapple]: model for how every refuge is treated
when i took the bus back the best

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[molly_crabapple]: was only ucranian women and children because
men aren’t allowed to leave the country so

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[molly_crabapple]: when i took the bus back into
poland

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[lina]: yeah

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[molly_crabapple]: just a simple passport check there were
volunteers from l salvador there there the church

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[molly_crabapple]: group who had coffee and tea and
sue toys for the children and there were

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[molly_crabapple]: stationed we’re set up by the polish
government to you know people up with getting

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[molly_crabapple]: where they needed to go right or
getting some place to live and i just

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[molly_crabapple]: thought like first obviously ucranians deserve this
but how wonderful it would be and how

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[molly_crabapple]: just it would be if syrians and
afghans and everyone else eratreans know who people

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[molly_crabapple]: from outside a door right all of
these people were treat the same way it

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[molly_crabapple]: borders because everything it’s hell to have
to leave your home automatically it’s hell to

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[molly_crabapple]: have to abandon your dad or your
husband there but the fact that at least

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[molly_crabapple]: at the border is you’re treated like
a human being with dignity is just so

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[molly_crabapple]: much better than how literally any other
refugees are treated and i just hope that

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[molly_crabapple]: countries can learn from this that this
is how all refugees deserve to be treated

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[lina]: absolutely i couldn’t agree more and you
know i think that that would be that

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[lina]: if that lesson is what we take
away from this experience it would be such

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[lina]: a huge benefit to the world to
see that as a model exactly you said

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[lina]: so i want to reverse back so
we we were just on your trip and

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[lina]: we probably will get back to that
work and i want to hear more about

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[lina]: this upcoming book project that’s coming along
in little bit but i want before we

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[lina]: started part of this belongings podcast is
to ask our guests to draw us a

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[lina]: map of home

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[molly_crabapple]: ah

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[lina]: and i’m very excited for

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[molly_crabapple]: yeah

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[lina]: you to share your drawing with our
audience especially since molly crab

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[molly_crabapple]: oh

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[lina]: apple is such an amazing artist and
so we want to can you tell us

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[lina]: a story about what you drew where
this is why this is your map of

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[lina]: home

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[molly_crabapple]: so first of all it’s not exactly
like an overhead map but i

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[lina]: m

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[molly_crabapple]: drew this

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[lina]: h

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[molly_crabapple]: kind of simplified version of a series
of brown stones in brooklyn and the reason

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[molly_crabapple]: i drew this is it’s a little
bit based on the brown stones that my

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[molly_crabapple]: will had in um in prospect heights
it’s kind of just based on you know

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[molly_crabapple]: coming from new york in general but
so

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[lina]: ah

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[molly_crabapple]: in new york you know brown stones
were originally houses for rich people that later

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[molly_crabapple]: became as these rich people kind of
left they became houses for a lot of

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[molly_crabapple]: poor people in my case in my
family’s case like lower lower middle class working

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[molly_crabapple]: class purterikans and these brown stones are
so beautiful they’re so whimsical they have like

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[molly_crabapple]: marble floors and ouwgargoils cool window um
crystal door knobs and to me what they

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[molly_crabapple]: represented was they represented like a sort
of working class luxury in new york right

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[molly_crabapple]: this thing where they’re kind of they’re
kind of gritty they’re filled with lots and

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[molly_crabapple]: lots of people

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[lina]: m

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[molly_crabapple]: people have out on the stoop all
day they pry open the fire hydrogen next

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[molly_crabapple]: to them in summer so that they
could cool off in the heat but also

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[molly_crabapple]: they look like palaces for they look
like palaces they’re enchanting right that’s what people

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[molly_crabapple]: are moving back into them and whenever
i think of home i think of new

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[molly_crabapple]: york city in general but this specific
type of new york city this old school

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[molly_crabapple]: new york this immigrant working class you
know ornate old buildings falling to pieces new

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[molly_crabapple]: york this hustle new york that i
love now give my thoughts he has this

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[molly_crabapple]: quote where he says that home is
where your attempts to escape cease and for

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[molly_crabapple]: me that’s what new york has been
for me it’s the place that no matter

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[molly_crabapple]: what was going down i would never
try to escape from because that’s where you

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[molly_crabapple]: escape to right that’s where you belong

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[lina]: i love that quote and i actually
read it in one of your interviews so

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[lina]: i’m so glad that you shared it
with us today and i love this vision

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[lina]: of you know old school new york
and kind of you know going back to

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[lina]: your mother’s home as well as you
know you you are such a new yorker

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[lina]: and it’s part of where you are
building your future as well

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[molly_crabapple]: i love this city so my my
great grandfather on my jewish side of my

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[molly_crabapple]: family came here running away from probably
a political arrest way back in the old

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[molly_crabapple]: country my my bello and my poterican
side came here to it just build a

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[molly_crabapple]: life to build a future outside that
was something little bit greater than build being

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[molly_crabapple]: a sugar cane cutter in porterico and
it’s the place where i was born at

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[molly_crabapple]: the place where my mom was born
my mom was born on a kitchen table

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[molly_crabapple]: in coney island on neptune avenue and
it’s to me the realization of so much

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[molly_crabapple]: of what i love in this world
for one thing new york is a city

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[molly_crabapple]: that both has a very specific identity
but that people from anywhere in the world

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00:14:02,909 –> 00:14:05,773
[molly_crabapple]: can belong to that identity you don’t
have to english

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[lina]: hm

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[molly_crabapple]: you don’t have to address a

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[lina]: yeah

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[molly_crabapple]: certain way you don’t have to take
off your job you don’t have to take

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00:14:10,722 –> 00:14:14,328
[molly_crabapple]: off your say you don’t have to
lose your accent you don’t have to change

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[molly_crabapple]: your name you can still be a
new yorker as long as you’re kind of

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[molly_crabapple]: sharp and smart and you hustle right
and that lack of hustle and sharpness is

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[molly_crabapple]: also what makes a lot of people
especially a lot of other americans not new

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[molly_crabapple]: yorkers right it’s all about a quality
that you have as opposed to where you’re

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00:14:31,837 –> 00:14:36,785
[molly_crabapple]: born or as opposed to trying to
force yourself into a box and to me

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[molly_crabapple]: that is what makes new york magic
it’s people from every where in the entire

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[molly_crabapple]: world speaking every possible language living together
in okay this kind of sometimes flow we

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[molly_crabapple]: i’m not saying everyone loves each other
all the time but they’re living together and

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[molly_crabapple]: making a common few you’re with each
other and no one no one in new

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[molly_crabapple]: york has ever asked like are you
a real mekin that’s just not something anyone

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00:14:59,999 –> 00:15:05,190
[molly_crabapple]: would care about and be a name
right on that to me is that’s what

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[molly_crabapple]: built the city i love m

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[lina]: i love that so much and it’s
such a great spirit that you see definitely

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[lina]: and it’s like an energy that you
feel in new york city as well of

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[lina]: that kind of feeling of inclusion and
i’ve seen you know the work that you’ve

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[lina]: done i mean i know that you’ve
always been doing activism and work and involved

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00:15:28,843 –> 00:15:33,951
[lina]: getting involved in social movements in new
york city with you know workers with taxi

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[lina]: drivers recently more recently and during covid
this became i felt a very significant part

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00:15:40,242 –> 00:15:44,569
[lina]: of what you were working on what
you’re writing about your art and so can

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00:15:44,669 –> 00:15:48,876
[lina]: you talk little bit about you know
i feel like between occupy wall street and

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00:15:49,016 –> 00:15:54,706
[lina]: covid it kind of book ends two
stages of activism and work in new york

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00:15:54,806 –> 00:16:01,477
[lina]: city and being of this kind of
community and the struggles for justice and equality

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00:16:01,537 –> 00:16:07,687
[lina]: and freedom and you’re always participating in
these movements how do you how do you

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00:16:07,848 –> 00:16:13,878
[lina]: put yourself in these kinds of situations
or choose where where to be and and

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00:16:13,998 –> 00:16:18,886
[lina]: find that sense of almost a sense
of belonging within movements versus even you know

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00:16:18,986 –> 00:16:24,877
[lina]: geographically i think when of you i
c c as being finding belonging in movements

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00:16:24,998 –> 00:16:28,805
[lina]: would you agree with that and then
how do you go about that as a

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00:16:29,327 –> 00:16:30,108
[lina]: method of living

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00:16:30,723 –> 00:16:36,052
[molly_crabapple]: my god i don’t i mean i
think what you said about like occupying covid

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00:16:36,172 –> 00:16:39,597
[molly_crabapple]: being book ends it’s very true i
mean i think one of the things that

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00:16:39,638 –> 00:16:42,884
[molly_crabapple]: covid did for for all of us
right is it forced us to stay put

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00:16:43,105 –> 00:16:48,723
[molly_crabapple]: right for and in many ways it
forced us to say say where do i

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00:16:49,144 –> 00:16:52,207
[molly_crabapple]: want to stay put if i can’t
move where’s the place that i want to

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[molly_crabapple]: be stuck right and um you know
for me for me that was new york

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00:16:56,051 –> 00:17:01,461
[molly_crabapple]: city specially because my mother is here
because my friends are here and i felt

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00:17:02,103 –> 00:17:06,531
[molly_crabapple]: like new york was hit very very
very hard by ovid early on i think

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00:17:06,611 –> 00:17:11,701
[molly_crabapple]: forty thousand people died really really fast
and because new york is very dense you

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00:17:11,781 –> 00:17:15,808
[molly_crabapple]: can eel that around you in a
way that a place that was more spread

237
00:17:15,888 –> 00:17:18,692
[molly_crabapple]: out you might not because in a
place that was more spread out you wouldn’t

238
00:17:18,732 –> 00:17:23,761
[molly_crabapple]: be hearing the sirens right wouldn’t necesally
happening in your building or whatever and so

239
00:17:25,403 –> 00:17:29,711
[molly_crabapple]: for me during covid i was like
i’m not going to leave this city at

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00:17:29,771 –> 00:17:34,140
[molly_crabapple]: all not going to leave it until
things settle down because it’s my city and

241
00:17:35,573 –> 00:17:41,718
[molly_crabapple]: you don’t leave your city when it
needs to right you stay there and i

242
00:17:41,798 –> 00:17:47,863
[molly_crabapple]: even became very angry at a lot
of people who left especially people who rich

243
00:17:47,923 –> 00:17:52,411
[molly_crabapple]: and left because it was boring because
they felt a little scared you know and

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00:17:54,193 –> 00:18:01,796
[molly_crabapple]: so i think that what ovid did
was it forced me to have much more

245
00:18:01,836 –> 00:18:06,544
[molly_crabapple]: of a sense of like place and
commitment to place than i had previously had

246
00:18:06,624 –> 00:18:09,709
[molly_crabapple]: because i previously had travelled so much
i mean i don’t think i went more

247
00:18:09,749 –> 00:18:15,022
[molly_crabapple]: than three months without travelling for the
best you know decade at least i certainly

248
00:18:15,063 –> 00:18:20,912
[molly_crabapple]: didn’t spend nearly two years and in
any one place like i had in terms

249
00:18:20,993 –> 00:18:26,776
[molly_crabapple]: of finding home within movements i mean
i think i just i feel at home

250
00:18:26,836 –> 00:18:31,990
[molly_crabapple]: with anyone who’s smart rebel who doesn’t
like the way the world is and doesn’t

251
00:18:32,070 –> 00:18:32,371
[molly_crabapple]: think that

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00:18:32,330 –> 00:18:32,491
[lina]: yeah

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00:18:32,391 –> 00:18:35,898
[molly_crabapple]: they’re going to listen to the world’s
stupid rules right that wants to make something

254
00:18:35,978 –> 00:18:41,437
[molly_crabapple]: better for themselves and something or for
other people anyone who’s capable of being kind

255
00:18:41,477 –> 00:18:44,828
[molly_crabapple]: of skeptical and looking askance at the
world and those are my people right

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00:18:45,930 –> 00:18:46,890
[lina]: yeah

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00:18:46,295 –> 00:18:48,118
[molly_crabapple]: and in terms of

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00:18:48,309 –> 00:18:48,330
[lina]: m

259
00:18:48,853 –> 00:18:56,399
[molly_crabapple]: new york based fights so new york
is a very interesting city that i think

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00:18:56,480 –> 00:19:02,131
[molly_crabapple]: is used to be a bit more
different than other cities but unfortunately other cities

261
00:19:02,191 –> 00:19:05,479
[molly_crabapple]: are also suffering the same thing which
is that new york is a

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00:19:05,490 –> 00:19:06,180
[lina]: yeah

263
00:19:05,560 –> 00:19:16,494
[molly_crabapple]: city that is undergoing extreme ikeultrogentrification right
where rents are going up so much points

264
00:19:16,614 –> 00:19:20,620
[molly_crabapple]: where making a hundred thousand dollars a
year just wouldn’t cut it you know it’s

265
00:19:20,700 –> 00:19:26,276
[molly_crabapple]: a place where people can’t own their
own homes usually seventy percent of the city

266
00:19:26,397 –> 00:19:32,693
[molly_crabapple]: rents because it’s so expensive it’s a
place where you know if you’re like some

267
00:19:32,773 –> 00:19:36,796
[molly_crabapple]: lady who does nails right or you
know some guy who sells cotes on the

268
00:19:36,837 –> 00:19:40,300
[molly_crabapple]: street or whatever it’s really hard to
live here because it’s so expensive and you

269
00:19:40,380 –> 00:19:45,496
[molly_crabapple]: keep getting pushed further and further out
on middle class people get pushed further and

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00:19:45,556 –> 00:19:48,941
[molly_crabapple]: further out and even upper middle class
people are pushed further and further out in

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00:19:48,981 –> 00:19:53,910
[molly_crabapple]: this cycle of displacement so even people
for whom new york really

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00:19:53,741 –> 00:19:53,883
[lina]: yeah

273
00:19:53,970 –> 00:19:58,533
[molly_crabapple]: feels like your home on like your
home in your heart it’s very hard to

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00:19:58,573 –> 00:20:02,320
[molly_crabapple]: make it your home and practice and
in fact new york fights you on attempts

275
00:20:02,360 –> 00:20:06,406
[molly_crabapple]: to make it your home in practice
because it’s so hard to secure stable housing

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00:20:07,288 –> 00:20:11,637
[molly_crabapple]: and so for me in new york
the that i think is most important right

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00:20:11,717 –> 00:20:17,661
[molly_crabapple]: now and what i a lot of
my effort to is the fight for housing

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00:20:17,761 –> 00:20:24,667
[molly_crabapple]: right for tenants because i think that
if laws aren’t changed here and if it’s

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00:20:24,707 –> 00:20:28,250
[molly_crabapple]: still so easy to evict people and
if it’s still so easy to double and

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00:20:28,310 –> 00:20:33,346
[molly_crabapple]: triple and quadruple rents you know normal
people just won’t be able to make their

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00:20:33,386 –> 00:20:37,773
[molly_crabapple]: homes here and that is a shame
because of the people that built this city

282
00:20:37,813 –> 00:20:42,281
[molly_crabapple]: the city wasn’t just built by russian
oligarchs right this city was

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00:20:42,090 –> 00:20:42,780
[lina]: yeah

284
00:20:42,461 –> 00:20:45,465
[molly_crabapple]: built by eve sort of people and
i want every sort of people to be

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00:20:45,525 –> 00:20:48,628
[molly_crabapple]: able to live here and be able
to have a stable life here not have

286
00:20:48,688 –> 00:20:52,211
[molly_crabapple]: to move all the time and be
able to raise their kids here be able

287
00:20:52,392 –> 00:20:55,025
[molly_crabapple]: to able to feel home here

288
00:20:57,290 –> 00:21:01,256
[lina]: absolutely and i mean i think we’ve
seen so much of that you know shifts

289
00:21:01,337 –> 00:21:05,804
[lina]: during the pandemic in cities i mean
in chicago it happened to a lesser extreme

290
00:21:05,944 –> 00:21:10,333
[lina]: new york has definitely happened at a
different level and it’s ver very sad because

291
00:21:10,835 –> 00:21:14,683
[lina]: you know people like you say in
one of your articles i think the love

292
00:21:14,763 –> 00:21:19,211
[lina]: letter to new york you describe how
during the pandemic people started using this city

293
00:21:19,711 –> 00:21:23,057
[lina]: in different ways and different kinds of
people were using the city finally were able

294
00:21:23,117 –> 00:21:27,825
[lina]: to kind of occupy their own s
again and use you know the public spaces

295
00:21:27,925 –> 00:21:32,092
[lina]: and use the streets and and kind
of take over the city in a way

296
00:21:32,172 –> 00:21:37,223
[lina]: that was not really available to them
or accessible to them before lose that and

297
00:21:37,263 –> 00:21:39,956
[lina]: have a full reversal of that is
just extremely sad

298
00:21:40,503 –> 00:21:45,872
[molly_crabapple]: it’s an absolute tragedy i mean one
of the things i remember many was how

299
00:21:47,034 –> 00:21:52,082
[molly_crabapple]: during the pandemic you know wash washington
square park was filled with like young black

300
00:21:52,162 –> 00:21:57,624
[molly_crabapple]: and luck people from the outer burrows
who probably either would have been like shoot

301
00:21:57,664 –> 00:22:00,749
[molly_crabapple]: away by cops there or wouldn’t have
felt like you know the sense of ownership

302
00:22:00,809 –> 00:22:05,697
[molly_crabapple]: of that park or whatever but during
the pandemic they made that park into a

303
00:22:05,777 –> 00:22:07,460
[molly_crabapple]: fucking car sorry i’m cursing

304
00:22:07,830 –> 00:22:08,940
[lina]: yeah

305
00:22:07,981 –> 00:22:10,525
[molly_crabapple]: they made that park into a carnival
there were like performers

306
00:22:10,239 –> 00:22:10,260
[lina]: m

307
00:22:10,545 –> 00:22:14,852
[molly_crabapple]: there were people selling stuff people rollers
skating the crazy dance parties you know what

308
00:22:14,932 –> 00:22:19,962
[molly_crabapple]: now and it was like this is
seeing a city belong to its people you

309
00:22:20,002 –> 00:22:21,285
[molly_crabapple]: know and it’s

310
00:22:21,231 –> 00:22:21,251
[lina]: m

311
00:22:21,325 –> 00:22:22,669
[molly_crabapple]: not that there weren’t also you

312
00:22:22,659 –> 00:22:22,680
[lina]: m

313
00:22:22,729 –> 00:22:28,007
[molly_crabapple]: know a lot of homeless people who
are having mental health problems it’s not that

314
00:22:28,047 –> 00:22:35,315
[molly_crabapple]: there wasn’t you know also some imperfect
stuff but just to see the city belong

315
00:22:35,595 –> 00:22:39,642
[molly_crabapple]: to people in a non commercial way
where people are just making their own joy

316
00:22:40,203 –> 00:22:45,332
[molly_crabapple]: that was so beautiful and right now
there’s this really i feel like vindictive attempt

317
00:22:45,392 –> 00:22:50,217
[molly_crabapple]: to take that away and turn the
city right back into like consume a consumable

318
00:22:50,297 –> 00:22:54,561
[molly_crabapple]: product for people who work in finance
or something you know to police it more

319
00:22:54,781 –> 00:23:02,997
[molly_crabapple]: to m you shut these things down
and you know that to me is such

320
00:23:03,157 –> 00:23:04,981
[molly_crabapple]: it’s such a shame it’s such a
disgrace

321
00:23:07,180 –> 00:23:12,609
[lina]: yeah absolutely and i mean again it’s
like so strange that the parallels between you

322
00:23:12,649 –> 00:23:16,315
[lina]: know this idea of what you said
you know creating a home in your heart

323
00:23:16,516 –> 00:23:20,743
[lina]: but it’s not home and practice i
mean how crazy is that feels like when

324
00:23:20,943 –> 00:23:25,551
[lina]: somebody is talking about syria or aleppo
and you know war places in war where

325
00:23:25,651 –> 00:23:31,720
[lina]: as you know here we’re talking about
financial war on on on people’s own now

326
00:23:32,081 –> 00:23:36,750
[lina]: the occupants of the city and the
people that belong there and it is a

327
00:23:36,810 –> 00:23:40,517
[lina]: devastation and i think we’re seeing more
and more of it across the united states

328
00:23:40,577 –> 00:23:41,338
[lina]: right now sadly

329
00:23:42,574 –> 00:23:43,178
[molly_crabapple]: absolutely

330
00:23:42,750 –> 00:23:47,197
[lina]: but to go to your you to
go to your what you grabbed me when

331
00:23:47,237 –> 00:23:50,543
[lina]: you said smart rebel and smart rebels
being your

332
00:23:50,883 –> 00:23:51,146
[molly_crabapple]: oh

333
00:23:51,083 –> 00:23:55,591
[lina]: people i wanted to talk a little
bit about brothers of the gun

334
00:23:56,013 –> 00:23:56,253
[molly_crabapple]: oh

335
00:23:56,172 –> 00:24:00,078
[lina]: and your collaboration with when you’re okay
sorry

336
00:24:00,388 –> 00:24:00,408
[molly_crabapple]: h

337
00:24:01,240 –> 00:24:01,801
[lina]: i wanted to talk

338
00:24:01,752 –> 00:24:01,773
[molly_crabapple]: h

339
00:24:01,841 –> 00:24:05,908
[lina]: a little bit about your collaboration with
madnhsham and on that book on that book

340
00:24:05,988 –> 00:24:10,095
[lina]: that beautiful book that you created together
and that you wrote together and you illustrated

341
00:24:10,656 –> 00:24:15,484
[lina]: and had started as a text correspondence
between you and man while he was in

342
00:24:15,604 –> 00:24:21,154
[lina]: a and sending you pictures from a
and resulted in this beautiful memoir on the

343
00:24:21,194 –> 00:24:25,362
[lina]: story of man and his friends and
syria and so i wanted to ask you

344
00:24:25,482 –> 00:24:27,967
[lina]: about if you want to tell us
a little bit about that work and how

345
00:24:28,027 –> 00:24:28,728
[lina]: it affected you

346
00:24:29,814 –> 00:24:35,992
[molly_crabapple]: yeah of course so i’m me and
moran started corresponding i want to say in

347
00:24:36,052 –> 00:24:37,216
[molly_crabapple]: two thousand and fourteen

348
00:24:37,110 –> 00:24:37,391
[lina]: oh

349
00:24:38,279 –> 00:24:42,499
[molly_crabapple]: there was a group of people you
know on twitter that you know as you

350
00:24:42,539 –> 00:24:45,466
[molly_crabapple]: know because we met through that group
of people right who are interested in syria

351
00:24:45,546 –> 00:24:50,897
[molly_crabapple]: and we’re talking about it and marian
who was going under a different name at

352
00:24:50,957 –> 00:24:59,673
[molly_crabapple]: that time was always just like a
really independent minded witty insightful person and at

353
00:24:59,713 –> 00:25:05,963
[molly_crabapple]: that time i was starting to learn
arabic and he we just kind of became

354
00:25:06,103 –> 00:25:09,970
[molly_crabapple]: friends and kind of bonded over talking
about you know arabic and talking about literature

355
00:25:10,030 –> 00:25:14,455
[molly_crabapple]: and talking about you know english literature
too like i remember he would like send

356
00:25:14,496 –> 00:25:20,522
[molly_crabapple]: me musotkavani stuff and i would send
him george or well stuff for instance and

357
00:25:22,143 –> 00:25:30,838
[molly_crabapple]: after a while of just corresponding i
asked him something he was in rock which

358
00:25:30,918 –> 00:25:34,504
[molly_crabapple]: at that time was being occupied by
isis and i asked him if he had

359
00:25:34,544 –> 00:25:38,330
[molly_crabapple]: any photos on his phone of just
normal life i didn’t not new photos don’t

360
00:25:38,370 –> 00:25:41,757
[molly_crabapple]: take any photos right but just now
the photos we all have right i asked

361
00:25:41,777 –> 00:25:46,577
[molly_crabapple]: him if i could draw from them
and he told me he didn’t have photos

362
00:25:46,698 –> 00:25:52,217
[molly_crabapple]: but he told me that he would
take some and i was like it’s a

363
00:25:52,237 –> 00:25:55,689
[molly_crabapple]: little crazy that’s dangerous right and he’s
like no no no don’t trust me it’s

364
00:25:55,729 –> 00:26:03,133
[molly_crabapple]: not dangerous liar you know but he
he took these photos of life under the

365
00:26:03,193 –> 00:26:07,881
[molly_crabapple]: isis occupation of the kids digging in
the trash for stuff to sell of the

366
00:26:07,921 –> 00:26:13,189
[molly_crabapple]: bread lines of the isis traffic cops
looking at women of the wounded fighters of

367
00:26:13,249 –> 00:26:18,249
[molly_crabapple]: people checking their internet of all of
that and he sent me this photos for

368
00:26:18,289 –> 00:26:22,470
[molly_crabapple]: me to draw from and i remember
when i was looking at them i felt

369
00:26:22,550 –> 00:26:26,519
[molly_crabapple]: like i was looking at something that
all of the boarders and all of the

370
00:26:26,559 –> 00:26:33,665
[molly_crabapple]: bastards in the world have conspired to
keep him from showing me and i was

371
00:26:33,725 –> 00:26:38,077
[molly_crabapple]: so honoured and i was so humble
to get these photos i decided to draw

372
00:26:38,157 –> 00:26:43,590
[molly_crabapple]: from them and because man is a
really good writer he was an english literature

373
00:26:43,650 –> 00:26:48,898
[molly_crabapple]: major someone who translated reading for go
into into arabic like for fun you know

374
00:26:49,880 –> 00:26:50,261
[molly_crabapple]: i asked him

375
00:26:50,220 –> 00:26:51,090
[lina]: yeah

376
00:26:50,401 –> 00:26:55,800
[molly_crabapple]: if he wanted to write some cap
s and publish this collaboration for vanity fair

377
00:26:56,793 –> 00:27:05,227
[molly_crabapple]: now around when this was happening america
started bombing rock and man not the american

378
00:27:05,287 –> 00:27:11,855
[molly_crabapple]: government not the media but marian broke
the news because he was able to identify

379
00:27:11,915 –> 00:27:16,824
[molly_crabapple]: the sound of the bombs and how
the american bombs were i a lot more

380
00:27:16,864 –> 00:27:25,915
[molly_crabapple]: powerful than the russian bombs and so
we have done this collaboration together and we

381
00:27:25,995 –> 00:27:30,000
[molly_crabapple]: decided to do more and we became
closer and closer friends he eventually went to

382
00:27:30,060 –> 00:27:37,033
[molly_crabapple]: mossel he went to estdelepo when it
were still held by the rebels and he

383
00:27:37,073 –> 00:27:39,699
[molly_crabapple]: sent me all these photos and i
was drawing from them and he was writing

384
00:27:39,780 –> 00:27:40,501
[molly_crabapple]: to accompany them

385
00:27:41,190 –> 00:27:42,180
[lina]: yeah

386
00:27:41,596 –> 00:27:45,646
[molly_crabapple]: and we were publishing them in vanity
fair and eventually you know i asked him

387
00:27:45,706 –> 00:27:47,810
[molly_crabapple]: i was like dude we should we
should do a book with these

388
00:27:49,710 –> 00:27:49,730
[lina]: m

389
00:27:50,116 –> 00:27:56,043
[molly_crabapple]: and we decided to do brothers of
the gun which is the story of him

390
00:27:56,463 –> 00:28:01,367
[molly_crabapple]: being young guy growing up in rock
very working class city and his two best

391
00:28:01,487 –> 00:28:06,552
[molly_crabapple]: friends both of whom joined the rebels
and both of whom died fighting during the

392
00:28:06,592 –> 00:28:11,890
[molly_crabapple]: war and it’s a book about many
things to book about syria it’s a book

393
00:28:11,950 –> 00:28:18,618
[molly_crabapple]: about idealism about war about you no
danger but i would say above all it’s

394
00:28:18,658 –> 00:28:21,000
[molly_crabapple]: a book about home and it’s a
book about commitment to home

395
00:28:21,757 –> 00:28:22,290
[lina]: hm

396
00:28:22,381 –> 00:28:28,117
[molly_crabapple]: because it’s about his love of rock
his love of the city that he was

397
00:28:28,177 –> 00:28:34,674
[molly_crabapple]: born in and in many ways his
inability to fit anywhere else and you know

398
00:28:34,814 –> 00:28:39,181
[molly_crabapple]: after we finished the book and after
we finished the book tour marine went back

399
00:28:39,241 –> 00:28:42,767
[molly_crabapple]: to rocca and you know he’s married
there he has an internet business you know

400
00:28:42,847 –> 00:28:48,294
[molly_crabapple]: just just like he did back in
the day and i think all of the

401
00:28:48,615 –> 00:28:54,444
[molly_crabapple]: many many many things i learned from
aran because he’s brilliant his love of home

402
00:28:54,685 –> 00:29:00,174
[molly_crabapple]: was something that taught me a lot
because i had always and someone who is

403
00:29:00,214 –> 00:29:03,600
[molly_crabapple]: kind of always flitting around the world
and always love new york obviously right but

404
00:29:03,681 –> 00:29:11,687
[molly_crabapple]: i i am i think i learned
from him what it meant to actually really

405
00:29:11,787 –> 00:29:16,956
[molly_crabapple]: love a place and really stay and
really be committed to it and something i’m

406
00:29:16,996 –> 00:29:18,408
[molly_crabapple]: always grateful to him for teaching me

407
00:29:21,211 –> 00:29:26,139
[lina]: that’s so beautiful and the book is
such a powerful book and so beautiful with

408
00:29:26,299 –> 00:29:31,869
[lina]: its illustrations as well in that layering
of powerful words with powerful images is such

409
00:29:32,470 –> 00:29:36,416
[lina]: signature of your work and it just
takes everything to the next level in terms

410
00:29:36,536 –> 00:29:44,329
[lina]: of understanding the details and getting both
you know pieces of of really artistry you

411
00:29:44,510 –> 00:29:47,697
[lina]: when you when you read something you
absorb it in a very different way than

412
00:29:47,737 –> 00:29:51,305
[lina]: when you look at something and that’s
one of the most powerful parts about your

413
00:29:51,666 –> 00:29:52,588
[lina]: work as an artist

414
00:29:53,213 –> 00:29:57,680
[molly_crabapple]: thank you and it was very collaborative
like we wrote it together like basically like

415
00:29:57,760 –> 00:30:00,925
[molly_crabapple]: i would write i would interview him
and write a part he’d rewrite it he

416
00:30:00,985 –> 00:30:04,992
[molly_crabapple]: would write something and then i would
like you know fill in parts and so

417
00:30:05,273 –> 00:30:08,137
[molly_crabapple]: you know in a way where almost
nothing i could would say was like just

418
00:30:08,238 –> 00:30:12,144
[molly_crabapple]: one of ours and it was the
same with the art like i would draw

419
00:30:12,284 –> 00:30:15,590
[molly_crabapple]: and i would sketch and i would
interview him about what about what the drawing

420
00:30:15,610 –> 00:30:18,334
[molly_crabapple]: should be because what i was trying
to do is i was trying to almost

421
00:30:18,535 –> 00:30:22,481
[molly_crabapple]: download his memories right and put them
on the page and then you know he’d

422
00:30:22,521 –> 00:30:25,987
[molly_crabapple]: look at my sketch and he’d be
like this is dead wrong this is cleishade

423
00:30:26,087 –> 00:30:30,715
[molly_crabapple]: what is this you know no one
drinks that you know what the hell and

424
00:30:31,637 –> 00:30:34,581
[molly_crabapple]: so i would you know red these
sketches and red these sketches until it was

425
00:30:34,622 –> 00:30:38,408
[molly_crabapple]: something that was right until it was
true because i was also drawing places i

426
00:30:38,448 –> 00:30:43,726
[molly_crabapple]: have never been at never been to
rocca and i’m so proud of what we

427
00:30:43,806 –> 00:30:49,028
[molly_crabapple]: created and i’m so proud of this
fusion of what we both did you know

428
00:30:50,853 –> 00:30:53,978
[molly_crabapple]: those drawings that i did in brothers
of the gun are my favorite drawings have

429
00:30:54,038 –> 00:30:58,005
[molly_crabapple]: ever done i did the same number
of drawings for it as goya did for

430
00:30:58,065 –> 00:31:04,186
[molly_crabapple]: disasters of war and they were my
attempt to channel that yeah i’m just i

431
00:31:05,853 –> 00:31:10,117
[molly_crabapple]: i think that what brothers of the
gun did is something that i always try

432
00:31:10,357 –> 00:31:13,180
[molly_crabapple]: to do an art which is they
try to do something to photography can’t do

433
00:31:13,380 –> 00:31:14,722
[molly_crabapple]: right i am

434
00:31:14,956 –> 00:31:15,510
[lina]: hm

435
00:31:16,243 –> 00:31:19,791
[molly_crabapple]: i try to pull things back from
the memory hole that weren’t photographed i try

436
00:31:19,891 –> 00:31:25,574
[molly_crabapple]: to make things that were deliberately hidden
visual and visible again i try to show

437
00:31:25,614 –> 00:31:29,123
[molly_crabapple]: what things felt like as well as
you know just what they looked like and

438
00:31:29,384 –> 00:31:33,655
[molly_crabapple]: so that i think brothers of the
gun is probably that work that i feel

439
00:31:33,715 –> 00:31:35,661
[molly_crabapple]: like i came closest to succeeding in
that

440
00:31:37,850 –> 00:31:40,434
[lina]: yeah i mean i love that i
think that one of the things you’ve said

441
00:31:40,494 –> 00:31:43,940
[lina]: in your interviews that i wanted to
ask you about is you’ve said something along

442
00:31:43,980 –> 00:31:49,329
[lina]: the lines of you know that looking
like looking at things as they are like

443
00:31:49,369 –> 00:31:52,938
[lina]: the while as you draw you look
at things as they are versus how you

444
00:31:53,018 –> 00:31:56,827
[lina]: think that they are and i thought
that that was a very powerful way of

445
00:31:57,730 –> 00:32:03,159
[lina]: drawing the concept of drawing it reminded
me of how we write as well as

446
00:32:03,219 –> 00:32:05,603
[lina]: that when you want to write something
and you want to make it true you

447
00:32:05,643 –> 00:32:10,531
[lina]: look very very closely and you have
to kind of cut away the things that

448
00:32:10,972 –> 00:32:15,279
[lina]: you know that you realize their perceptions
or maybe how you want to see something

449
00:32:15,339 –> 00:32:18,003
[lina]: or how you want to say something
and then you realize that this is not

450
00:32:18,083 –> 00:32:25,476
[lina]: really what’s true and that you also
we’re describing in another interview about drawing rubble

451
00:32:25,957 –> 00:32:29,803
[lina]: and i know that in in brothers
of the gun and also in other works

452
00:32:29,863 –> 00:32:34,210
[lina]: that you’ve done around syria also around
palestine you know the idea of draw something

453
00:32:34,250 –> 00:32:39,880
[lina]: that has been destroyed is very difficult
and i wanted to just ask you about

454
00:32:39,920 –> 00:32:45,609
[lina]: that creative process of how you decide
what to draw and how you decide what

455
00:32:45,790 –> 00:32:49,882
[lina]: your next piece of work and what
to commit to as an artist when you’re

456
00:32:49,962 –> 00:32:52,088
[lina]: working in these very difficult situations

457
00:32:53,255 –> 00:32:58,459
[molly_crabapple]: now first of all i want to
say something about the technique of drawing and

458
00:32:59,473 –> 00:33:06,624
[molly_crabapple]: about how when you’re drawing well you’re
sort of fighting against cliche so everyone has

459
00:33:06,925 –> 00:33:10,251
[molly_crabapple]: something in their mind where they’re like
think things look a certain way for instance

460
00:33:10,271 –> 00:33:14,480
[molly_crabapple]: when i was a kid i draw
i would draw noses show you on the

461
00:33:14,540 –> 00:33:22,623
[molly_crabapple]: pad i would draw noses that looked
like an upside down seven s and

462
00:33:22,921 –> 00:33:23,490
[lina]: hm

463
00:33:24,466 –> 00:33:29,454
[molly_crabapple]: my mother is an amazing artist and
she would should be like hey a nose

464
00:33:29,554 –> 00:33:34,141
[molly_crabapple]: if that’s a nose where do they
breathe out of where the nostrils right and

465
00:33:34,221 –> 00:33:37,467
[molly_crabapple]: should be like that’s not a nose
look at a nose right and you start

466
00:33:37,487 –> 00:33:41,534
[molly_crabapple]: looking on your these round bits has
nostrils it has light you know a bridge

467
00:33:42,135 –> 00:33:46,161
[molly_crabapple]: and you start realizing like it’s not
a seven the seven is a weird representive

468
00:33:46,302 –> 00:33:51,110
[molly_crabapple]: cliche in your head it’s something else
something much more complicated and everything is like

469
00:33:51,150 –> 00:33:55,677
[molly_crabapple]: that every time you are raying something
for real and trying to do it good

470
00:33:56,218 –> 00:34:00,265
[molly_crabapple]: you’re fighting against the cliche that’s in
your head of what the thing looks like

471
00:34:00,646 –> 00:34:04,372
[molly_crabapple]: to actually see it in front of
you in all of its richness and all

472
00:34:04,412 –> 00:34:05,160
[molly_crabapple]: of its come exit

473
00:34:05,153 –> 00:34:05,640
[lina]: hm

474
00:34:07,824 –> 00:34:15,044
[molly_crabapple]: and in terms of how i choose
what i draw so what i did with

475
00:34:15,244 –> 00:34:20,393
[molly_crabapple]: brothers of the gun nonwithstanding in general
i prefer to draw things that i’ve seen

476
00:34:20,473 –> 00:34:24,621
[molly_crabapple]: myself with my own eyes even if
i shoot i phone reference of it right

477
00:34:26,243 –> 00:34:29,971
[molly_crabapple]: i want to have been there and
the reason is because if i wasn’t there

478
00:34:31,003 –> 00:34:35,690
[molly_crabapple]: i’m relying on someone else to make
choices for me right i’m relying on someone

479
00:34:35,771 –> 00:34:39,837
[molly_crabapple]: else even if it’s something petty even
if it’s like what angle something is shot

480
00:34:39,917 –> 00:34:45,218
[molly_crabapple]: at right i’m still counting on someone
to make that to make that determination for

481
00:34:45,298 –> 00:34:52,669
[molly_crabapple]: me and when you were there just
life has such poetry to it life has

482
00:34:52,750 –> 00:35:00,107
[molly_crabapple]: such accidental and deliberate symbolism to it
that if you’re somewhere where history is happening

483
00:35:00,388 –> 00:35:04,632
[molly_crabapple]: and you’re sensitive and your eyes are
open it can’t help it slaying you all

484
00:35:04,672 –> 00:35:12,028
[molly_crabapple]: the time remember when i was in
as in two thousand and fifteen i was

485
00:35:12,088 –> 00:35:18,759
[molly_crabapple]: in the neighborhood which israel had destroyed
in during one of their invasions during what

486
00:35:18,779 –> 00:35:23,847
[molly_crabapple]: they called operation protective edge israel had
bombed this civilian neighborhood they had brought in

487
00:35:23,907 –> 00:35:31,360
[molly_crabapple]: buildosers brought in tanks and it was
destroyed and i was walking around it and

488
00:35:31,560 –> 00:35:38,259
[molly_crabapple]: i saw the wreck this hospital and
then i saw men that were taking

489
00:35:38,160 –> 00:35:38,180
[lina]: m

490
00:35:38,279 –> 00:35:41,444
[molly_crabapple]: the re bar from the hospital and
they were straightening it and why are they

491
00:35:41,585 –> 00:35:47,895
[molly_crabapple]: straightening re bar they’re straightening rebarcasgusas under
blockade because they are not allowed prevented from

492
00:35:47,935 –> 00:35:55,515
[molly_crabapple]: getting adequate construction material by israel and
they didn’t have the proper tools to straighten

493
00:35:55,615 –> 00:35:59,238
[molly_crabapple]: it they were using largely hand tools
it was a really really hot day but

494
00:35:59,278 –> 00:36:03,934
[molly_crabapple]: there they were they were taking this
re bar which was all messed up from

495
00:36:03,974 –> 00:36:09,703
[molly_crabapple]: this bombing which looked like snakes like
tentacles so horrifying and they were straightening it

496
00:36:09,764 –> 00:36:13,049
[molly_crabapple]: out so they could build something again
because they were like you cannot beat us

497
00:36:14,011 –> 00:36:19,709
[molly_crabapple]: and to me this moment of seeing
that purely accidental moment i got from walking

498
00:36:19,749 –> 00:36:24,757
[molly_crabapple]: through this neighborhood summed up so much
about gaza and so much about the defiance

499
00:36:24,958 –> 00:36:26,921
[molly_crabapple]: of it that i had to draw
that

500
00:36:31,520 –> 00:36:35,971
[lina]: i think that that i remember those
drawings too and it’s very very powerful that

501
00:36:36,092 –> 00:36:44,799
[lina]: capturing those kinds of very devastating sensitive
hard moments is definitely a piece

502
00:36:45,093 –> 00:36:45,333
[molly_crabapple]: oh

503
00:36:45,099 –> 00:36:50,087
[lina]: of your work and what you just
said even fighting at cliche i mean i

504
00:36:50,168 –> 00:36:53,593
[lina]: never thought about that ms of the
drawings but it’s definitely true in

505
00:36:53,613 –> 00:36:53,854
[molly_crabapple]: oh

506
00:36:53,693 –> 00:36:55,577
[lina]: terms of writing

507
00:36:55,831 –> 00:36:56,073
[molly_crabapple]: yeah

508
00:36:56,138 –> 00:37:00,805
[lina]: you know always trying to fight the
cliches but i as you reminded me about

509
00:37:00,925 –> 00:37:03,570
[lina]: you know when we go back to
this idea of the kinds of move ments

510
00:37:03,630 –> 00:37:08,097
[lina]: that you’ve been part of one of
you are one of my heroes in terms

511
00:37:08,318 –> 00:37:12,625
[lina]: of just know the way that you
stood in solidarity with syrians at a time

512
00:37:12,665 –> 00:37:16,091
[lina]: when there were a lot of people
that weren’t standing in solidary was syrians at

513
00:37:16,131 –> 00:37:21,780
[lina]: the beginning of the revolution people that
we expected to and syria as we’ve talked

514
00:37:21,820 –> 00:37:27,971
[lina]: about this a lot over the years
is that it was this this weird moment

515
00:37:28,071 –> 00:37:32,839
[lina]: in history where there was a division
between what people thought about what should happen

516
00:37:33,059 –> 00:37:36,605
[lina]: how what should what should happen in
the world to stop what was going on

517
00:37:36,665 –> 00:37:45,019
[lina]: in syria and stood very very firmly
on the side of syrians demands and rights

518
00:37:45,319 –> 00:37:50,007
[lina]: for freedom and democracy and dignity and
all the things that people were chanting for

519
00:37:50,047 –> 00:37:55,757
[lina]: in the streets when they so the
streets against the regime and you know it

520
00:37:55,837 –> 00:37:59,423
[lina]: wasn’t in align you’re not always the
kinds of stands that you take are not

521
00:37:59,523 –> 00:38:04,511
[lina]: always in alignment with a certain group
of people that you take france stands and

522
00:38:04,572 –> 00:38:08,618
[lina]: it’s always that you have your own
compass towards justice and i think in that

523
00:38:08,698 –> 00:38:13,727
[lina]: way even it’s fighting that cliche of
this group of people is progressive or liberal

524
00:38:13,867 –> 00:38:16,832
[lina]: or x y and z and then
you ha to be in this box and

525
00:38:16,892 –> 00:38:23,483
[lina]: take the same stands against against or
with all different kinds of you know positions

526
00:38:23,583 –> 00:38:28,241
[lina]: or wars or fights or movements but
you don’t all follow those

527
00:38:29,153 –> 00:38:32,719
[molly_crabapple]: no i don’t i mean i think
as a general rule any group of people

528
00:38:32,759 –> 00:38:35,343
[molly_crabapple]: that’s having bombs dropped on them that
deserves your sympathy

529
00:38:35,070 –> 00:38:35,090
[lina]: m

530
00:38:35,383 –> 00:38:37,787
[molly_crabapple]: and the people that are dropping the
bombs on them don’t i mean i think

531
00:38:37,907 –> 00:38:39,129
[molly_crabapple]: that’s pretty pretty basic

532
00:38:39,050 –> 00:38:39,211
[lina]: yeah

533
00:38:39,209 –> 00:38:45,454
[molly_crabapple]: thing in the world and think that
people who want to live in a democratic

534
00:38:45,534 –> 00:38:48,600
[molly_crabapple]: society versus people who want to lock
them up in jails and torture them so

535
00:38:48,680 –> 00:38:52,747
[molly_crabapple]: that their son and grandson can stay
in power and perpetuity it’s pretty clear you

536
00:38:52,787 –> 00:38:58,495
[molly_crabapple]: know whose side you should be on
and i think that it’s true that with

537
00:38:58,515 –> 00:39:03,301
[molly_crabapple]: a lot of political tendencies there’s this
idea like oh if you are a socialist

538
00:39:03,381 –> 00:39:10,103
[molly_crabapple]: you should also some inexplicable reason support
you know russia which is a know ultra

539
00:39:10,183 –> 00:39:17,148
[molly_crabapple]: capitalistic clyptocracy right now or if you
are progressive on this you should support this

540
00:39:17,850 –> 00:39:24,734
[molly_crabapple]: incredibly unprogressive government and i just find
that sort of thing like it’s antithetical to

541
00:39:24,794 –> 00:39:29,821
[molly_crabapple]: compassion it’s antithetical to human solidarity and
empathy and it’s frankly antithetical to thinking for

542
00:39:29,861 –> 00:39:30,682
[molly_crabapple]: yourself you know

543
00:39:32,790 –> 00:39:37,117
[lina]: absolutely i just i’ve always wondered like
how not more people think this way because

544
00:39:37,157 –> 00:39:41,344
[lina]: it does feel very clear and it
was shocking as assyrian it was very shocking

545
00:39:41,404 –> 00:39:45,231
[lina]: in that moment of thinking that oh
this is the arab spring p or finally

546
00:39:45,451 –> 00:39:50,580
[lina]: standing up in the region for their
freedom and then the reaction was very very

547
00:39:50,640 –> 00:39:54,606
[lina]: different and that was that was a
big part of the shock of syria and

548
00:39:54,646 –> 00:40:00,185
[lina]: i know other places in the world
to go to kem house i wanted to

549
00:40:00,225 –> 00:40:04,152
[lina]: talk a little bit about your work
there you were so kind to come to

550
00:40:04,192 –> 00:40:07,698
[lina]: kutem house and you came with us
on our missions before and you drew murals

551
00:40:07,878 –> 00:40:12,466
[lina]: and refugees s in southern turkey and
then when we built our karam house in

552
00:40:12,746 –> 00:40:17,614
[lina]: nrihanle you came and you gave life
to our walls with these beautiful murals that

553
00:40:17,695 –> 00:40:22,421
[lina]: are still a huge part of the
identity of the house today of different kinds

554
00:40:22,502 –> 00:40:29,369
[lina]: of figures to inspire the kids that
come to kum house with international excuse me

555
00:40:30,910 –> 00:40:37,401
[lina]: and international like we have international and
regional figures people that are poets and writers

556
00:40:37,541 –> 00:40:41,328
[lina]: and you know the people with their
with quotes from their work you know we

557
00:40:41,428 –> 00:40:46,697
[lina]: have nelson man della did mahmdaish and
many more and so i wanted you to

558
00:40:46,737 –> 00:40:51,926
[lina]: talk a little bit about your work
and making these murals and and what did

559
00:40:52,007 –> 00:40:53,008
[lina]: making them mean to you

560
00:40:53,483 –> 00:40:56,209
[molly_crabapple]: my god it was so cool it
was so fun actually so

561
00:40:56,280 –> 00:40:56,300
[lina]: m

562
00:40:56,409 –> 00:41:01,846
[molly_crabapple]: yeah i i said i love i
love arabic language literature i mean i love

563
00:41:02,767 –> 00:41:10,954
[molly_crabapple]: you know reading the casananatani or mamma
or dais and i mean this people are

564
00:41:11,014 –> 00:41:16,923
[molly_crabapple]: like the most elegant brilliant you know
sometimes quite cynical just like like like everything

565
00:41:17,004 –> 00:41:22,757
[molly_crabapple]: to me like these these writers and
so for me it was this huge pleasure

566
00:41:22,838 –> 00:41:28,690
[molly_crabapple]: to get to these portraits of them
honoring them right and with quotes from their

567
00:41:28,730 –> 00:41:33,678
[molly_crabapple]: work and but then also it was
such a joy to take other writers that

568
00:41:33,718 –> 00:41:37,184
[molly_crabapple]: i loved from all around the world
for instance you know james ball in right

569
00:41:37,384 –> 00:41:42,272
[molly_crabapple]: or holiadeborte os who is one of
the most famous qurtorican poets and translate their

570
00:41:42,372 –> 00:41:47,200
[molly_crabapple]: work into arabic or have you have
the ramhousementors and the kids translated into arabic

571
00:41:47,881 –> 00:41:54,796
[molly_crabapple]: and them alongside and then was make
this like little saints or rogues gallery of

572
00:41:55,056 –> 00:41:58,983
[molly_crabapple]: artists and writers and thinkers for the
walls of karam house is something i loved

573
00:41:59,103 –> 00:42:03,490
[molly_crabapple]: so much and one really cool thing
was i twitted that picture i did of

574
00:42:03,530 –> 00:42:08,345
[molly_crabapple]: who you had the border posts wetviral
and puorterico even there was an article about

575
00:42:08,405 –> 00:42:14,535
[molly_crabapple]: it in umnuevoda which is the biggest
newspaper in porterico because they were so happy

576
00:42:14,616 –> 00:42:15,677
[molly_crabapple]: that you know prtricanwriter

577
00:42:15,639 –> 00:42:15,660
[lina]: m

578
00:42:15,757 –> 00:42:19,804
[molly_crabapple]: is being honored on this international stage
like that right you know translated into arabic

579
00:42:19,864 –> 00:42:25,694
[molly_crabapple]: with you know kids in south south
east turkey appreciating her work so i mean

580
00:42:25,774 –> 00:42:31,404
[molly_crabapple]: for me it was amazing and also
that cutonhouse is beautiful like anyone who’s listening

581
00:42:31,424 –> 00:42:33,628
[molly_crabapple]: to this who hasn’t seen photos or
hasn’t visited

582
00:42:33,602 –> 00:42:33,622
[lina]: m

583
00:42:33,668 –> 00:42:43,836
[molly_crabapple]: cater house it’s just like a gorgeous
light filled creativity filled palace of wonders you

584
00:42:43,876 –> 00:42:51,128
[molly_crabapple]: know of intellect of creativity of discovery
of curiosity libraries you know labs of three

585
00:42:51,188 –> 00:42:59,332
[molly_crabapple]: deep printers and you know all sorts
of workshops brilliant minds really really smart kids

586
00:42:59,452 –> 00:43:01,074
[molly_crabapple]: to my god and

587
00:43:01,201 –> 00:43:01,345
[lina]: yeah

588
00:43:01,215 –> 00:43:05,462
[molly_crabapple]: so it was just so fun to
be in that environment like day after day

589
00:43:05,542 –> 00:43:08,010
[molly_crabapple]: beautiful it was walls i mean i
loved it and i loved it

590
00:43:10,030 –> 00:43:13,656
[lina]: yeah i loved it too i mean
i had had a zoom interview while i

591
00:43:13,696 –> 00:43:16,781
[lina]: was there just a couple of months
ago and i had to i sat in

592
00:43:16,821 –> 00:43:19,626
[lina]: that room and i had i think
julia was behind me and maybe it was

593
00:43:20,928 –> 00:43:26,057
[lina]: maybe it was uhanthonysia dead on that
wall that same wall and afterwards when i

594
00:43:26,117 –> 00:43:28,882
[lina]: was watching the video i was like
that’s the coolest back trop

595
00:43:28,803 –> 00:43:29,493
[molly_crabapple]: yeah

596
00:43:28,962 –> 00:43:29,543
[lina]: i’ve ever had

597
00:43:29,613 –> 00:43:30,243
[molly_crabapple]: yeah

598
00:43:29,623 –> 00:43:33,569
[lina]: i need i need these behind me
everywhere i go because they are there so

599
00:43:33,790 –> 00:43:38,938
[lina]: beautiful and they’re so photogenic and they
are so inspiring and i always love this

600
00:43:38,998 –> 00:43:43,326
[lina]: idea that they’re there to inspire the
kids and always have them you know read

601
00:43:43,826 –> 00:43:48,594
[lina]: read the quotes wonder about these figure
is that they might recognize in some some

602
00:43:48,635 –> 00:43:53,142
[lina]: of they don’t and the library is
a huge piece of the cetemhouse and kids

603
00:43:53,262 –> 00:43:58,972
[lina]: like borrow books and read books all
the time but you did also these beautiful

604
00:43:59,012 –> 00:44:03,239
[lina]: murals also at the seam school and
at the schools that we worked in and

605
00:44:03,339 –> 00:44:10,251
[lina]: remember this you have so many you
know animations with with animals and ores and

606
00:44:10,691 –> 00:44:14,858
[lina]: everything is very detailed and fantastical and
wherever you look there’s like a little story

607
00:44:14,958 –> 00:44:19,005
[lina]: of you know a mouse and a
cat and something going on so you can

608
00:44:19,065 –> 00:44:23,280
[lina]: just like your work you can just
go into and and see all of the

609
00:44:23,320 –> 00:44:24,045
[lina]: imagination

610
00:44:24,613 –> 00:44:27,037
[molly_crabapple]: you thank you yeah know i love
i love doing

611
00:44:26,949 –> 00:44:26,970
[lina]: m

612
00:44:27,077 –> 00:44:32,666
[molly_crabapple]: those murals um you know really playing
with the architecture and i love drawing animals

613
00:44:32,706 –> 00:44:38,536
[molly_crabapple]: sometimes because you can tell human stories
but without king the them specific the way

614
00:44:38,636 –> 00:44:41,421
[molly_crabapple]: humans are like a mouse isn’t necessarily
from any particular

615
00:44:41,229 –> 00:44:41,250
[lina]: m

616
00:44:41,481 –> 00:44:44,726
[molly_crabapple]: country it’s not necessary like a boy
mouse or a girl mouse you know it’s

617
00:44:44,827 –> 00:44:47,872
[molly_crabapple]: just like the figure the figure in
the story and anyone can like you know

618
00:44:48,433 –> 00:44:51,678
[molly_crabapple]: late to it i think that’s why
fair tales use animals so much or like

619
00:44:51,698 –> 00:44:54,242
[molly_crabapple]: were like cliloadilna for instance uses animals

620
00:44:54,847 –> 00:44:55,380
[lina]: hm

621
00:44:54,863 –> 00:44:57,087
[molly_crabapple]: and so that’s kind of what i
was trying to do is trying to tell

622
00:44:57,127 –> 00:44:59,191
[molly_crabapple]: these stories with all of

623
00:44:59,199 –> 00:44:59,220
[lina]: m

624
00:44:59,251 –> 00:45:00,614
[molly_crabapple]: these animals flowing

625
00:45:00,489 –> 00:45:00,510
[lina]: m

626
00:45:00,714 –> 00:45:01,378
[molly_crabapple]: everywhere you know

627
00:45:03,781 –> 00:45:06,434
[lina]: absolutely i have to just one second

628
00:45:06,623 –> 00:45:09,591
[molly_crabapple]: no ill get some water to oh
you have water

629
00:45:09,475 –> 00:45:10,110
[lina]: hm

630
00:45:09,672 –> 00:45:09,853
[molly_crabapple]: okay

631
00:45:11,360 –> 00:45:11,941
[lina]: you can get water

632
00:45:11,914 –> 00:45:12,076
[molly_crabapple]: okay

633
00:45:12,021 –> 00:45:12,121
[lina]: to

634
00:45:12,157 –> 00:45:12,278
[molly_crabapple]: ones

635
00:45:12,281 –> 00:45:12,942
[lina]: i think like i have

636
00:45:12,873 –> 00:45:13,094
[molly_crabapple]: oh

637
00:45:12,982 –> 00:45:13,804
[lina]: something in my throat

638
00:45:15,145 –> 00:45:15,226
[molly_crabapple]: ah

639
00:45:18,630 –> 00:45:18,650
[lina]: m

640
00:45:22,590 –> 00:45:22,830
[lina]: yeah

641
00:45:24,494 –> 00:45:25,203
[molly_crabapple]: okay

642
00:45:25,699 –> 00:45:25,920
[lina]: yeah

643
00:45:28,594 –> 00:45:29,103
[molly_crabapple]: oh

644
00:45:29,700 –> 00:45:31,134
[lina]: oh oh

645
00:45:39,540 –> 00:45:39,560
[lina]: m

646
00:45:42,333 –> 00:45:50,004
[molly_crabapple]: oh yeah i got my burney mug
burnin a

647
00:45:50,161 –> 00:45:52,235
[lina]: m that’s so awesome

648
00:45:51,993 –> 00:45:54,061
[molly_crabapple]: yeah oh

649
00:45:54,832 –> 00:45:58,979
[lina]: so my next my next question was
actually going to be about arabic and you

650
00:45:59,019 –> 00:46:03,146
[lina]: know i know that you’ve been learning
arabic and for a long time and you

651
00:46:03,286 –> 00:46:06,652
[lina]: also i don’t know when you started
learning it is sure if you’ve always been

652
00:46:06,672 –> 00:46:10,418
[lina]: learning geis or just working on it
more because of this upcoming book i don’t

653
00:46:10,478 –> 00:46:14,565
[lina]: want to ask you what languages do
you speak and how do you approach this

654
00:46:14,665 –> 00:46:19,233
[lina]: love of languages because i think that’s
also a gift it’s not every every person

655
00:46:19,313 –> 00:46:23,620
[lina]: is capable of absorbing languages but i
know that it’s something that you really enjoy

656
00:46:24,261 –> 00:46:27,847
[lina]: and are working towards so can you
tell us a little bit about that aspect

657
00:46:27,947 –> 00:46:28,508
[lina]: of your life

658
00:46:28,925 –> 00:46:29,127
[molly_crabapple]: i mean

659
00:46:29,129 –> 00:46:29,209
[lina]: and

660
00:46:29,167 –> 00:46:29,409
[molly_crabapple]: i feel

661
00:46:29,430 –> 00:46:29,491
[lina]: you

662
00:46:29,450 –> 00:46:29,550
[molly_crabapple]: the

663
00:46:29,551 –> 00:46:29,733
[lina]: have

664
00:46:29,591 –> 00:46:29,712
[molly_crabapple]: need

665
00:46:29,814 –> 00:46:31,024
[lina]: any tips for others

666
00:46:31,303 –> 00:46:31,964
[molly_crabapple]: i feel the need to

667
00:46:32,000 –> 00:46:32,040
[lina]: if

668
00:46:32,024 –> 00:46:32,245
[molly_crabapple]: issue

669
00:46:32,060 –> 00:46:32,443
[lina]: you have any

670
00:46:32,325 –> 00:46:32,385
[molly_crabapple]: it

671
00:46:32,503 –> 00:46:33,188
[lina]: tips for others

672
00:46:33,447 –> 00:46:33,907
[molly_crabapple]: oh my god

673
00:46:33,732 –> 00:46:33,974
[lina]: yes

674
00:46:33,968 –> 00:46:36,251
[molly_crabapple]: i feel the need to issue a
disclaimer because i feel like

675
00:46:36,885 –> 00:46:37,440
[lina]: hm

676
00:46:36,993 –> 00:46:37,774
[molly_crabapple]: for like let’s say

677
00:46:37,860 –> 00:46:38,490
[lina]: yeah

678
00:46:37,894 –> 00:46:41,280
[molly_crabapple]: if you’re like an arab person or
european person you’re considered like i don’t know

679
00:46:41,340 –> 00:46:44,829
[molly_crabapple]: like you know a lot of languages
when you know eight languages you know knowing

680
00:46:44,889 –> 00:46:45,471
[molly_crabapple]: like two or three

681
00:46:45,420 –> 00:46:45,562
[lina]: yeah

682
00:46:45,511 –> 00:46:48,661
[molly_crabapple]: its just standard whereas if you’re an
american and you know how to say like

683
00:46:49,533 –> 00:46:52,538
[molly_crabapple]: je parle france like people think

684
00:46:52,420 –> 00:46:52,641
[lina]: yeah

685
00:46:52,698 –> 00:46:55,563
[molly_crabapple]: that you know you’re like a fucking
genius so i want to say that like

686
00:46:55,643 –> 00:46:56,945
[molly_crabapple]: my any linguistic

687
00:46:56,760 –> 00:46:56,882
[lina]: oh

688
00:46:56,985 –> 00:47:00,791
[molly_crabapple]: ability i have that’s considered good is
only by the low bar of american standards

689
00:47:00,972 –> 00:47:05,558
[molly_crabapple]: first of all not you know not
comfortable to for instance like your multi lingual

690
00:47:05,598 –> 00:47:06,899
[molly_crabapple]: ism or like my many you know
my

691
00:47:06,923 –> 00:47:07,470
[lina]: hm

692
00:47:06,939 –> 00:47:12,420
[molly_crabapple]: many friends but i mean i speak
spanish good like i would say i speak

693
00:47:12,480 –> 00:47:13,083
[molly_crabapple]: that pretty

694
00:47:13,322 –> 00:47:13,342
[lina]: m

695
00:47:13,324 –> 00:47:18,879
[molly_crabapple]: pretty fluently now i am enough to
you now negotiate anything i need or get

696
00:47:18,919 –> 00:47:23,648
[molly_crabapple]: myself into trouble my arabic used to
be better i started studying it in two

697
00:47:23,668 –> 00:47:30,396
[molly_crabapple]: thousand and thirteen and i unfortunately i
didn’t study ama i didn’t study you know

698
00:47:30,537 –> 00:47:35,742
[molly_crabapple]: colloquial arabic because i just didn’t have
anyone to practice with instead i got that

699
00:47:36,383 –> 00:47:43,306
[molly_crabapple]: much marked book called elkatab which is
this arabic text book from georgetown which teaches

700
00:47:43,386 –> 00:47:49,645
[molly_crabapple]: you the word for comparative literature and
you know like my father works at the

701
00:47:49,725 –> 00:47:51,689
[molly_crabapple]: u n as like the first things
you learn right

702
00:47:52,740 –> 00:47:52,942
[lina]: oh

703
00:47:52,991 –> 00:47:56,917
[molly_crabapple]: and like this kind of like pro
game abdulnaser you know pan arabic book but

704
00:47:57,158 –> 00:48:01,866
[molly_crabapple]: it’s an amazingly hilarious and funny book
i learned my arabic from that i learned

705
00:48:01,946 –> 00:48:06,595
[molly_crabapple]: i learned and that’s why i got
so into i think reading contemporary arabic literature

706
00:48:06,695 –> 00:48:12,015
[molly_crabapple]: like cabane one of the things that
i did i kind of really teach myself

707
00:48:12,075 –> 00:48:14,980
[molly_crabapple]: how to read which was the only
thing i was good at my speaking you

708
00:48:15,020 –> 00:48:18,286
[molly_crabapple]: know my speaking you know how bad
my accent is but

709
00:48:18,574 –> 00:48:19,080
[lina]: hm

710
00:48:18,686 –> 00:48:26,275
[molly_crabapple]: but was i i got a copy
of cabane book that’s called at a nswetara

711
00:48:26,395 –> 00:48:34,629
[molly_crabapple]: which is poetry sex in the revolution
and i force translated it i got my

712
00:48:34,729 –> 00:48:39,283
[molly_crabapple]: dictionary i printed it all out i
did i was like i’m going to do

713
00:48:39,384 –> 00:48:42,288
[molly_crabapple]: it i’m going to translate this whole
book i don’t care how bad it is

714
00:48:42,429 –> 00:48:45,794
[molly_crabapple]: i don’t care how clumsy and horrific
this is but by the end of it

715
00:48:45,834 –> 00:48:48,318
[molly_crabapple]: i’m going to have like a vocabulary
i’m gonna have a feel for it right

716
00:48:48,879 –> 00:48:52,945
[molly_crabapple]: and i’ve done that a few with
a few one like books of essays and

717
00:48:52,985 –> 00:48:55,687
[molly_crabapple]: i think that really that was one
of the things that probably helped me most

718
00:48:55,747 –> 00:49:02,133
[molly_crabapple]: you know for just getting a sense
of reading and grammar and everything and i

719
00:49:02,194 –> 00:49:02,354
[molly_crabapple]: guess

720
00:49:02,220 –> 00:49:02,441
[lina]: yeah

721
00:49:02,414 –> 00:49:06,781
[molly_crabapple]: i just also i mean i think
you you learn things that you love right

722
00:49:06,881 –> 00:49:15,444
[molly_crabapple]: like i loved darsh i loved kinotaniyou
know i loved i love these people i

723
00:49:15,524 –> 00:49:20,793
[molly_crabapple]: loved like reading no said i loved
even though she’s controversial i love a man

724
00:49:20,873 –> 00:49:25,902
[molly_crabapple]: you know and i loved reading kanofanni’s
love letters to her and so i think

725
00:49:26,002 –> 00:49:29,908
[molly_crabapple]: that more than any talent it was
my my addiction to these geniuses that you

726
00:49:30,109 –> 00:49:30,710
[molly_crabapple]: kept me going

727
00:49:30,960 –> 00:49:30,980
[lina]: m

728
00:49:31,611 –> 00:49:36,099
[molly_crabapple]: i started studying gittish in for my
book because yittish was you know the language

729
00:49:36,179 –> 00:49:42,157
[molly_crabapple]: of my great grandparents and the language
all of the world that they interacted with

730
00:49:42,237 –> 00:49:48,284
[molly_crabapple]: was in as well and now is
a pretty hard language it’s also hard because

731
00:49:48,504 –> 00:49:51,810
[molly_crabapple]: it’s a small language very few people
speak it in that way it’s almost the

732
00:49:51,890 –> 00:49:56,157
[molly_crabapple]: opposite of arabic and spanish which are
spoken by so many people and so because

733
00:49:56,197 –> 00:50:00,745
[molly_crabapple]: of that there are much less resources
for it for inst and there’s like one

734
00:50:00,965 –> 00:50:03,810
[molly_crabapple]: online dictionary for you and you have
to pay each time you look up a

735
00:50:03,870 –> 00:50:04,150
[molly_crabapple]: word

736
00:50:04,770 –> 00:50:06,030
[lina]: m hm

737
00:50:05,813 –> 00:50:09,499
[molly_crabapple]: but i studied it at ivo which
is a center for youth history i took

738
00:50:09,559 –> 00:50:14,963
[molly_crabapple]: two summers of it on i like
it i think because it feels like a

739
00:50:15,024 –> 00:50:19,030
[molly_crabapple]: sort of nequeromancy when you read it
because here’s this language that you know was

740
00:50:19,090 –> 00:50:24,940
[molly_crabapple]: murdered right but there was this whole
literature there’s all these books by these stubborn

741
00:50:25,621 –> 00:50:30,594
[molly_crabapple]: optimistic hopeful people that they’ve written in
it and that we’re just being chucked on

742
00:50:30,614 –> 00:50:34,563
[molly_crabapple]: the street because no one could read
them and when i would pick up one

743
00:50:34,603 –> 00:50:37,486
[molly_crabapple]: of these books i felt like i
was saving something from the past that would

744
00:50:37,526 –> 00:50:42,351
[molly_crabapple]: have just been erased and i think
that’s what why i love why i love

745
00:50:42,432 –> 00:50:49,956
[molly_crabapple]: it and so one of the funny
things about tish is that yittishis basically mostly

746
00:50:49,996 –> 00:50:54,543
[molly_crabapple]: based on medieval german but written with
hebrew letters and with a with a few

747
00:50:54,603 –> 00:51:00,713
[molly_crabapple]: hebrew words and some slavonic words made
twenty percent hebrew words but because hebrew is

748
00:51:00,774 –> 00:51:07,124
[molly_crabapple]: very similar to arabic every so often
there’ll be this word in tish where i’ll

749
00:51:07,184 –> 00:51:10,329
[molly_crabapple]: feel like i’m feeling the warmth of
the arabic in this word you know like

750
00:51:11,051 –> 00:51:14,823
[molly_crabapple]: holm is the word for and yittishum
which

751
00:51:14,718 –> 00:51:15,270
[lina]: hm

752
00:51:14,863 –> 00:51:20,688
[molly_crabapple]: is like hell you know and so
i feel this this love of arabic like

753
00:51:20,808 –> 00:51:24,932
[molly_crabapple]: sort of filtered through in this strange
in this strange sort of counter intuitive way

754
00:51:27,980 –> 00:51:32,547
[lina]: that is so beautiful and it’s really
i mean it’s it’s extraordinary because it’s not

755
00:51:32,627 –> 00:51:36,414
[lina]: i mean i understand your point about
not knowing so many languages but you have

756
00:51:36,494 –> 00:51:42,484
[lina]: chosen to very hard ones to learn
i think that it’s i think when what

757
00:51:42,524 –> 00:51:47,272
[lina]: you’ve shared on social media about you
know your your working through this and this

758
00:51:47,332 –> 00:51:51,339
[lina]: idea of translating the translating and using
the dictionary i mean i’ve read all of

759
00:51:51,379 –> 00:51:55,105
[lina]: these things when you’ve shared them with
the world and even like how you write

760
00:51:55,205 –> 00:51:59,953
[lina]: your arabic and your your arabic becomes
part of your art i think it’s hugely

761
00:52:00,033 –> 00:52:05,744
[lina]: inspiring because languages are very very difficult
to enter and you’ve chosen ones that are

762
00:52:06,185 –> 00:52:07,508
[lina]: particularly difficult to enter

763
00:52:07,663 –> 00:52:11,630
[molly_crabapple]: i mean arabic is really hard but
rbicis so beautiful and also like one of

764
00:52:11,711 –> 00:52:16,036
[molly_crabapple]: the things i love about it was
when i started learning it i was kind

765
00:52:16,076 –> 00:52:17,038
[molly_crabapple]: of depressed and

766
00:52:17,010 –> 00:52:17,515
[lina]: yeah

767
00:52:17,578 –> 00:52:18,520
[molly_crabapple]: for for other reasons

768
00:52:18,270 –> 00:52:18,638
[lina]: oh

769
00:52:18,800 –> 00:52:24,679
[molly_crabapple]: and arabic not only is it very
hard but it’s very intellectually rigorous i want

770
00:52:24,699 –> 00:52:27,624
[molly_crabapple]: to say because you know they have
like the roots you you have like the

771
00:52:27,664 –> 00:52:30,549
[molly_crabapple]: three letter root and then you have
the patterns that you put it into and

772
00:52:30,589 –> 00:52:30,969
[molly_crabapple]: it almost

773
00:52:30,846 –> 00:52:31,500
[lina]: hm

774
00:52:31,029 –> 00:52:32,432
[molly_crabapple]: reminds me of this life

775
00:52:32,992 –> 00:52:33,157
[lina]: yeah

776
00:52:33,413 –> 00:52:37,001
[molly_crabapple]: math you know what i mean like
this higher level of math combined with

777
00:52:36,990 –> 00:52:37,152
[lina]: yeah

778
00:52:37,221 –> 00:52:43,146
[molly_crabapple]: the most beautiful poetry and written with
this like swirling caligraphy so it’s like very

779
00:52:43,407 –> 00:52:49,287
[molly_crabapple]: i don’t know like elegant and absorbing
and i think it took my mind out

780
00:52:49,328 –> 00:52:52,252
[molly_crabapple]: of the bad loops that it was
in because it was so hard it was

781
00:52:52,312 –> 00:52:55,538
[molly_crabapple]: like the same way that sometimes you
can bust yourself out of bad mental loops

782
00:52:55,578 –> 00:52:58,904
[molly_crabapple]: because you go running right and then
you run til you’re exhausted i think arabic

783
00:52:59,025 –> 00:53:00,810
[molly_crabapple]: did something like that to my brain

784
00:53:02,870 –> 00:53:06,697
[lina]: well i mean the way that i
learned are bank was i mean so i

785
00:53:06,757 –> 00:53:11,284
[lina]: was born in brooklyn so we have
this brooklyn connection right here today on this

786
00:53:11,344 –> 00:53:11,565
[lina]: first

787
00:53:11,433 –> 00:53:11,453
[molly_crabapple]: m

788
00:53:11,665 –> 00:53:15,692
[lina]: episode which is kind of cool but
when i move when my parents moved us

789
00:53:15,812 –> 00:53:21,401
[lina]: back to syria anteleppo hen i was
twelve i basically knew probably up until first

790
00:53:21,541 –> 00:53:26,930
[lina]: grade arabic and very me like just
the spoken arabic at home know how to

791
00:53:26,990 –> 00:53:30,276
[lina]: read or how to write and i
went back to syria and i had to

792
00:53:30,316 –> 00:53:32,079
[lina]: go straight into seventh grade

793
00:53:32,317 –> 00:53:32,621
[molly_crabapple]: fuf

794
00:53:32,680 –> 00:53:37,568
[lina]: in m and in like you know
it was a private school but was a

795
00:53:37,628 –> 00:53:43,157
[lina]: private public school it was just basically
you know full on bath is everything is

796
00:53:43,217 –> 00:53:50,169
[lina]: an arabic everything is you know roguememorization
wrote wrote rogue and roemetrmememorization

797
00:53:48,753 –> 00:53:48,934
[molly_crabapple]: yeah

798
00:53:50,830 –> 00:53:57,441
[lina]: and and it was very very very
difficult to it was very difficult to learn

799
00:53:57,541 –> 00:54:02,930
[lina]: arabic in that way but what you’re
talking about for me like the the grammar

800
00:54:03,932 –> 00:54:07,458
[lina]: was part that drew me in the
only way i could learn arabic was going

801
00:54:07,558 –> 00:54:12,546
[lina]: into the grammar going into the code
the fundamentals because i could make that i

802
00:54:12,727 –> 00:54:16,177
[lina]: thought of it as math and so
what would happen when we would have our

803
00:54:16,298 –> 00:54:20,752
[lina]: arabic exams like the language exams you
would have a piece where you would have

804
00:54:20,792 –> 00:54:25,059
[lina]: first the poetry and you’d have to
explain the poetry and then you would have

805
00:54:25,139 –> 00:54:29,426
[lina]: lines under to do the grammar part
of the poetry and then you would also

806
00:54:29,506 –> 00:54:33,653
[lina]: have a composition so anything that to
do with grammar like everybody in the class

807
00:54:33,733 –> 00:54:37,480
[lina]: obviously they’re all like all from aleppo
grew up their whole lives there but it’s

808
00:54:37,500 –> 00:54:40,405
[lina]: kind of like when you learn english
grammar when you learn when you learn english

809
00:54:40,445 –> 00:54:43,209
[lina]: you don’t really know english grammar but
when you’re an outsider you have to learn

810
00:54:43,991 –> 00:54:47,536
[lina]: so i would like basically the way
that we would exchange information

811
00:54:47,446 –> 00:54:47,590
[molly_crabapple]: yeah

812
00:54:47,597 –> 00:54:48,097
[lina]: and the test

813
00:54:48,273 –> 00:54:48,437
[molly_crabapple]: yeah

814
00:54:48,618 –> 00:54:52,324
[lina]: was i would tell them the clod
piece the grammar piece and they would tell

815
00:54:52,365 –> 00:54:57,271
[lina]: me what does this even mean so
i could actually conjugate the whole like sentence

816
00:54:57,351 –> 00:55:02,356
[lina]: or the whole shbatishadlike the whole line
but not now any of it what it

817
00:55:02,396 –> 00:55:02,616
[lina]: meant

818
00:55:02,854 –> 00:55:03,054
[molly_crabapple]: yeah

819
00:55:03,056 –> 00:55:03,937
[lina]: which is crazy

820
00:55:04,036 –> 00:55:04,818
[molly_crabapple]: and you put on all that

821
00:55:05,158 –> 00:55:05,258
[lina]: and

822
00:55:05,259 –> 00:55:05,761
[molly_crabapple]: perfectly

823
00:55:05,278 –> 00:55:09,413
[lina]: then also yeah and i could do
all of it out of i could do

824
00:55:09,473 –> 00:55:12,838
[lina]: all that perfectly and now i forgot
all of that but then it was you

825
00:55:12,898 –> 00:55:16,304
[lina]: know when we would have to do
the wrotememorization of history and geography you know

826
00:55:16,344 –> 00:55:19,029
[lina]: when you answer a question the way
that you answer a question is you’d have

827
00:55:19,089 –> 00:55:23,476
[lina]: to put it as is from the
text book you cannot you know put an

828
00:55:23,656 –> 00:55:27,383
[lina]: answer for anything that is like just
you made it up out of your own

829
00:55:27,463 –> 00:55:30,708
[lina]: mind it had to be exactly the
text book and so i would memorize memorize

830
00:55:30,788 –> 00:55:35,216
[lina]: memorie and i’d go the test and
then i would forget if i forgot a

831
00:55:35,276 –> 00:55:38,261
[lina]: word i would just leave a blank
so i would give in my like they

832
00:55:38,321 –> 00:55:41,166
[lina]: would be in these little booklets i’d
give my booklet back to the teacher and

833
00:55:41,186 –> 00:55:44,971
[lina]: she would look at it and would
be like imagine liking hire paragraph but there

834
00:55:44,991 –> 00:55:48,396
[lina]: would just be blank words because i
wouldn’t have anything to put instead

835
00:55:48,524 –> 00:55:48,993
[molly_crabapple]: my god

836
00:55:48,897 –> 00:55:54,258
[lina]: but i could continue on and so
imagine knowing like this like blocks of information

837
00:55:54,339 –> 00:55:57,187
[lina]: that did not make any sense and
i was just pour it on to the

838
00:55:57,227 –> 00:55:57,588
[lina]: page

839
00:55:57,803 –> 00:55:59,727
[molly_crabapple]: fucking that’s such madness that’s like the

840
00:55:59,711 –> 00:56:00,016
[lina]: yes

841
00:55:59,767 –> 00:56:01,531
[molly_crabapple]: worst possible way to teach something

842
00:56:03,710 –> 00:56:07,857
[lina]: yes that was you know and that’s
what we cut house like we’re anti all

843
00:56:07,937 –> 00:56:11,243
[lina]: of this it’s all about like you
know when you think about it it is

844
00:56:11,343 –> 00:56:15,490
[lina]: the worst way to teach some teach
a population but isn’t the best way to

845
00:56:15,770 –> 00:56:20,817
[lina]: create a whole population of non thinkers
or like to fight thinking

846
00:56:21,054 –> 00:56:21,562
[molly_crabapple]: exactly

847
00:56:21,598 –> 00:56:26,064
[lina]: you can’t really like suppress it because
then you end up you end up with

848
00:56:26,104 –> 00:56:30,812
[lina]: people like man and millions of other
young people who would not take that and

849
00:56:30,852 –> 00:56:35,119
[lina]: would find information and find it where
they can but it was it’s very very

850
00:56:35,300 –> 00:56:36,065
[lina]: very hard to do

851
00:56:37,173 –> 00:56:41,719
[molly_crabapple]: exactly exactly and also because it’s ridiculous
it not only doesn’t teach you how to

852
00:56:41,759 –> 00:56:42,120
[molly_crabapple]: think but it

853
00:56:42,102 –> 00:56:42,246
[lina]: yeah

854
00:56:42,180 –> 00:56:47,866
[molly_crabapple]: also teaches you to not think about
not question things because if you question things

855
00:56:47,907 –> 00:56:51,131
[molly_crabapple]: you would be like why are we
doing such a ridiculous exercise that doesn’t teach

856
00:56:51,171 –> 00:56:52,132
[molly_crabapple]: us real comprehension

857
00:56:54,891 –> 00:56:59,038
[lina]: exactly so we’re coming up to a
little bit at the end of our time

858
00:56:59,198 –> 00:57:03,245
[lina]: and what i wanted to talk about
before we go is obviously your first book

859
00:57:03,506 –> 00:57:07,292
[lina]: drawing blood and this is one of
my favorite books it is

860
00:57:07,383 –> 00:57:07,988
[molly_crabapple]: oh

861
00:57:07,392 –> 00:57:12,961
[lina]: such a beautiful book it’s molly’s memoir
and i encourage everybody to

862
00:57:12,835 –> 00:57:12,855
[molly_crabapple]: a

863
00:57:13,442 –> 00:57:18,110
[lina]: read both of molly’s books this one
really takes you into that journey of how

864
00:57:18,190 –> 00:57:24,320
[lina]: you became an artist all of your
adventures across the world and and in new

865
00:57:24,340 –> 00:57:29,269
[lina]: york city as well and it’s such
a moving book molly as well as i

866
00:57:29,409 –> 00:57:33,656
[lina]: love the writing in it is very
powerful and so i wanted to ask you

867
00:57:33,716 –> 00:57:38,925
[lina]: if you could you talk about drawing
and the power of drawing on your in

868
00:57:38,985 –> 00:57:43,993
[lina]: your life and and your sketches sketch
book in a really amazing way on the

869
00:57:44,033 –> 00:57:47,860
[lina]: very end of the book and so
i asked molly to read that passage

870
00:57:47,724 –> 00:57:47,784
[molly_crabapple]: he

871
00:57:48,320 –> 00:57:52,507
[lina]: at the very end to give you
a little bit of insight to how her

872
00:57:52,587 –> 00:57:54,358
[lina]: brain works and it’s just so beautiful

873
00:57:54,423 –> 00:57:59,660
[molly_crabapple]: thank you started drawing as a way
to cope with people

874
00:57:59,700 –> 00:57:59,903
[lina]: oh

875
00:58:00,783 –> 00:58:01,385
[molly_crabapple]: to observe

876
00:58:00,990 –> 00:58:01,650
[lina]: yeah

877
00:58:01,586 –> 00:58:02,350
[molly_crabapple]: and record them

878
00:58:03,270 –> 00:58:03,456
[lina]: yeah

879
00:58:03,634 –> 00:58:09,729
[molly_crabapple]: understand them charm them or keep them
at arm’s length i drew to show moroccan

880
00:58:09,870 –> 00:58:14,095
[molly_crabapple]: street kids that i was more than
a tourist i drew to win the attention

881
00:58:14,175 –> 00:58:20,638
[molly_crabapple]: of beautiful women and to mark authoritarian
twits i drew from the wings of burlesque

882
00:58:20,758 –> 00:58:25,951
[molly_crabapple]: shows when the girls peeled off their
gloves and poured glitter on to the crowd

883
00:58:27,703 –> 00:58:33,846
[molly_crabapple]: the world changed in two thousand eleven
let my art change with it expanding from

884
00:58:33,926 –> 00:58:40,078
[molly_crabapple]: night club walls to hotel suites and
street protests my drawings fled into the world

885
00:58:42,413 –> 00:58:47,509
[molly_crabapple]: continue to draw out of a gluttonous
desire for life in all its beauty and

886
00:58:47,589 –> 00:58:55,964
[molly_crabapple]: horror draw everything i hate and everything
i love fill new notebooks every week ketching

887
00:58:56,064 –> 00:59:02,398
[molly_crabapple]: refugee camps and rebels farmers and migrants
my work has taken me past the edge

888
00:59:02,439 –> 00:59:09,493
[molly_crabapple]: of burn out it’s burned in art
gave me a way to see to record

889
00:59:10,524 –> 00:59:18,065
[molly_crabapple]: fight and interrogate preserve love and demand
recording find joy where once i could only

890
00:59:18,166 –> 00:59:25,935
[molly_crabapple]: see ash i take on the world
armed only with a sketch book i make

891
00:59:25,995 –> 00:59:26,378
[molly_crabapple]: it mine

892
00:59:28,860 –> 00:59:36,830
[lina]: yeah so beautiful molly do you when
you wrote this book what inspired you the

893
00:59:36,891 –> 00:59:40,657
[lina]: most about trying to tell your story
and why did you choose to start writing

894
00:59:40,757 –> 00:59:42,925
[lina]: you know when you wrote your book
to start your memoir

895
00:59:43,944 –> 00:59:46,326
[molly_crabapple]: mean perhaps some of this will

896
00:59:46,200 –> 00:59:46,980
[lina]: yeah

897
00:59:46,366 –> 00:59:49,688
[molly_crabapple]: sound silly or utilitarian

898
00:59:49,050 –> 00:59:49,070
[lina]: m

899
00:59:49,809 –> 00:59:54,560
[molly_crabapple]: but i felt like it was the
story i could best tell i was just

900
00:59:54,600 –> 00:59:57,827
[molly_crabapple]: getting started as a writer i had
only been writing for four years when i

901
00:59:57,967 –> 01:00:02,550
[molly_crabapple]: when i wrote this and i thought
like well i know how the story goes

902
01:00:02,610 –> 01:00:09,767
[molly_crabapple]: because it’s mine right and so i
mean a lot of people that they thought

903
01:00:09,807 –> 01:00:12,912
[molly_crabapple]: it was silly to write a memoir
when i was i think i was thirty

904
01:00:12,952 –> 01:00:16,178
[molly_crabapple]: when i got this book deal but
but i was like no it’s not silly

905
01:00:16,498 –> 01:00:20,166
[molly_crabapple]: it’s actually fine because your memories are
all fresh right write this memoir when you’re

906
01:00:20,908 –> 01:00:25,321
[molly_crabapple]: seventy a lot of those things that
happened in your youth they’ll just kind of

907
01:00:25,382 –> 01:00:31,109
[molly_crabapple]: have faded into vague impressions but if
you write it when you’re young you you

908
01:00:31,892 –> 01:00:34,560
[molly_crabapple]: you still have everything in the moment
right it’s still brought

909
01:00:34,530 –> 01:00:34,852
[lina]: oh

910
01:00:34,620 –> 01:00:40,953
[molly_crabapple]: to you in terms of what was
most inspiring about writing it i mean i

911
01:00:41,053 –> 01:00:45,627
[molly_crabapple]: think it gave me a gratitude for
a lot of the really really extraordinary friends

912
01:00:45,708 –> 01:00:49,993
[molly_crabapple]: i’ve had like how lucky i was
especially to know all these women that i

913
01:00:50,033 –> 01:00:56,665
[molly_crabapple]: wrote about in the book you know
reliant performers models dancers writers real like muses

914
01:00:56,685 –> 01:01:03,568
[molly_crabapple]: that inspired me and shaped me and
i it made me really see the community

915
01:01:03,628 –> 01:01:09,978
[molly_crabapple]: that i came from a kind of
artistic subversive new york city and really appreciate

916
01:01:09,998 –> 01:01:15,186
[molly_crabapple]: all the love that i got from
that community so yeah i guess i guess

917
01:01:15,226 –> 01:01:19,747
[molly_crabapple]: that that’s it the gratitude luck that
i feel

918
01:01:22,701 –> 01:01:26,828
[lina]: well it’s an incredible book and i
wanted to before we go to our rapid

919
01:01:26,908 –> 01:01:30,434
[lina]: fire questions i wanted to ask you
about this book that you’re working on about

920
01:01:30,935 –> 01:01:32,037
[lina]: your great grandfather

921
01:01:32,033 –> 01:01:32,215
[molly_crabapple]: yes

922
01:01:32,658 –> 01:01:34,007
[lina]: and or is it your grand father

923
01:01:34,453 –> 01:01:37,179
[molly_crabapple]: it’s my great grandfather samuel

924
01:01:37,120 –> 01:01:37,220
[lina]: your

925
01:01:37,220 –> 01:01:37,400
[molly_crabapple]: roth

926
01:01:37,301 –> 01:01:37,482
[lina]: great

927
01:01:37,480 –> 01:01:37,701
[molly_crabapple]: board

928
01:01:37,543 –> 01:01:38,147
[lina]: grandfather

929
01:01:37,801 –> 01:01:37,941
[molly_crabapple]: yet

930
01:01:38,207 –> 01:01:42,846
[lina]: and because tell us about this project
and when is it coming out

931
01:01:42,783 –> 01:01:45,808
[molly_crabapple]: oh god oh god oh god i’m
so late on it my editor is going

932
01:01:45,848 –> 01:01:47,110
[molly_crabapple]: to be listening to this he’s going
to come

933
01:01:47,137 –> 01:01:47,670
[lina]: hm

934
01:01:47,170 –> 01:01:47,851
[molly_crabapple]: with a crow bar

935
01:01:47,790 –> 01:01:48,015
[lina]: oh

936
01:01:47,912 –> 01:01:49,995
[molly_crabapple]: and he’s going to break my knees
so that i’ll finally sit

937
01:01:50,010 –> 01:01:50,398
[lina]: uh

938
01:01:50,035 –> 01:01:52,659
[molly_crabapple]: down at the laptop so i’m

939
01:01:52,740 –> 01:01:52,941
[lina]: oh

940
01:01:53,501 –> 01:01:59,114
[molly_crabapple]: working on a book about me great
grandfather samuel roth board who was painter was

941
01:01:59,154 –> 01:02:00,797
[molly_crabapple]: the first person he was the person

942
01:02:00,750 –> 01:02:00,996
[lina]: yeah

943
01:02:00,857 –> 01:02:04,964
[molly_crabapple]: in the family that came to america
and made everyone in our family artists he

944
01:02:05,004 –> 01:02:11,303
[molly_crabapple]: was also a member of a jewish
anti ironist socialist party that would at one

945
01:02:11,403 –> 01:02:18,502
[molly_crabapple]: point the most popular jewish party in
eastern europe and was crushed by lerindbystalin and

946
01:02:18,724 –> 01:02:27,493
[molly_crabapple]: then later was raced from history essentially
by israel and so i i’ve been working

947
01:02:27,553 –> 01:02:31,039
[molly_crabapple]: on a book that’s both about sam’s
legacy but also about this movements history and

948
01:02:31,520 –> 01:02:38,051
[molly_crabapple]: for that of learned gittishthat’s why i
travelled lithuania la via poland ukraine interviewed amazing

949
01:02:38,151 –> 01:02:43,233
[molly_crabapple]: ninety year old guy as you know
who were kids in this movement and i

950
01:02:43,516 –> 01:02:52,212
[molly_crabapple]: am i’m writing this book about actually
in many ways it relates to what we’re

951
01:02:52,272 –> 01:03:01,314
[molly_crabapple]: talking about because with this movement the
bond believed was they believed that jews who

952
01:03:01,414 –> 01:03:06,502
[molly_crabapple]: are very very persecuting minority in eastern
europe had a right to stay there that

953
01:03:06,803 –> 01:03:11,651
[molly_crabapple]: they shouldn’t have to go and colonize
another country in order to be safe and

954
01:03:11,711 –> 01:03:15,035
[molly_crabapple]: in order to be free order to
be themselves and nor should they have to

955
01:03:15,435 –> 01:03:19,699
[molly_crabapple]: change who they were and take on
you know russian names and convert to christianity

956
01:03:20,159 –> 01:03:25,745
[molly_crabapple]: that they were born in russia or
poland and they had a right to live

957
01:03:26,046 –> 01:03:30,613
[molly_crabapple]: in a decent society and freedom and
dignity because that was their home and they

958
01:03:30,653 –> 01:03:39,023
[molly_crabapple]: called this principle do kites which in
tish it means harness and to me of

959
01:03:39,083 –> 01:03:43,974
[molly_crabapple]: the many horrific tragedies of the twentieth
century one of the greatest ones was that

960
01:03:44,155 –> 01:03:49,719
[molly_crabapple]: this was destroyed right that they could
not actually in those countries that they were

961
01:03:50,180 –> 01:03:55,791
[molly_crabapple]: killed by their neighbors and by europe
but that principle that people have a right

962
01:03:55,872 –> 01:04:01,157
[molly_crabapple]: to stay where they are that they
right to live in dignified lives that they

963
01:04:01,197 –> 01:04:03,921
[molly_crabapple]: don’t have to go somewhere else just
becase they’re a different race just becase they’re

964
01:04:03,961 –> 01:04:05,764
[molly_crabapple]: a different religion but that

965
01:04:05,790 –> 01:04:06,012
[lina]: yeah

966
01:04:05,804 –> 01:04:08,809
[molly_crabapple]: they can be where they want to
be and they can be themselves i think

967
01:04:08,890 –> 01:04:13,134
[molly_crabapple]: is one of the most important principle
and when i do this book i feel

968
01:04:13,154 –> 01:04:18,319
[molly_crabapple]: like i’m doing an active resurrection on
people that were unjustly crushed by some of

969
01:04:18,359 –> 01:04:20,662
[molly_crabapple]: the worst bastards of the twentieth century
but that were right

970
01:04:24,822 –> 01:04:28,508
[lina]: absolutely i mean i read a little
bit about this while i was researching for

971
01:04:28,568 –> 01:04:33,095
[lina]: this interview and it did that that
idea of harness did come up and it

972
01:04:33,156 –> 01:04:37,062
[lina]: really struck me because i had never
heard of this concept until i was reading

973
01:04:37,142 –> 01:04:42,812
[lina]: about it and and it is something
that you know also relates to the refuge

974
01:04:42,872 –> 01:04:48,441
[lina]: crisis now because people in a way
are not allowed to feel your ness it’s

975
01:04:48,501 –> 01:04:52,287
[lina]: almost you can’t go back but you’re
not really here we don’t know where you

976
01:04:52,348 –> 01:04:56,575
[lina]: can go and if you’re able to
go anywhere and it’s a it’s a huge

977
01:04:56,675 –> 01:05:01,784
[lina]: struggle even the idea of just continuing
sleep believing that you’re going to be able

978
01:05:01,844 –> 01:05:05,671
[lina]: to go back somewhere that really doesn’t
exist any more is not a way for

979
01:05:05,872 –> 01:05:09,058
[lina]: a young person or any person to
be able to move forward in life

980
01:05:09,744 –> 01:05:10,232
[molly_crabapple]: exactly

981
01:05:10,100 –> 01:05:12,034
[lina]: so you kind of feel perpetually stuck

982
01:05:13,233 –> 01:05:16,742
[molly_crabapple]: and also and also when you have
governments like with what you’re saying you know

983
01:05:17,002 –> 01:05:24,334
[molly_crabapple]: with so many governments that don’t allow
fog is to do anything i mean even

984
01:05:24,635 –> 01:05:28,561
[molly_crabapple]: you know in america people sometimes they
have asylum things where they can’t work right

985
01:05:28,581 –> 01:05:31,927
[molly_crabapple]: where they can’t you know buy property
where they can’t you know leave the country

986
01:05:31,987 –> 01:05:35,916
[molly_crabapple]: to visit anyone and these things they
keep people in a limb oh that is

987
01:05:36,057 –> 01:05:46,281
[molly_crabapple]: so psychologically detrimental right you can’t go
home because it’s too dangerous and home has

988
01:05:46,341 –> 01:05:50,528
[molly_crabapple]: also perhaps changed unrecognizably but the place
that you’re in will n’t allow you to

989
01:05:50,589 –> 01:05:56,811
[molly_crabapple]: be there and i mean that’s why
i think one of the best things about

990
01:05:56,851 –> 01:06:01,617
[molly_crabapple]: american you know critical of my own
country though i love it but one of

991
01:06:01,657 –> 01:06:04,783
[molly_crabapple]: the best things is the idea that
if you’re born here you’re a citizen there

992
01:06:04,883 –> 01:06:09,050
[molly_crabapple]: isn’t this sort of multigenerational thing like
in so many countries in the world where

993
01:06:09,791 –> 01:06:13,937
[molly_crabapple]: you are born somewhere your parents are
born somewhere your grandparents are born somewhere but

994
01:06:13,977 –> 01:06:19,226
[molly_crabapple]: you can’t be part of it because
of because of inane notion of like the

995
01:06:19,266 –> 01:06:23,408
[molly_crabapple]: blood or whatever in america for all
of its many faults for all of the

996
01:06:23,468 –> 01:06:26,738
[molly_crabapple]: many many bad things does with immigrants
at least if you’re born in this country

997
01:06:26,779 –> 01:06:27,501
[molly_crabapple]: you’re an american

998
01:06:30,050 –> 01:06:35,419
[lina]: yeah absolutely well i’m going to really
appreciate your time and we’re going to go

999
01:06:35,519 –> 01:06:40,788
[lina]: into our rapid fire questions now and
so the first question is to complete this

1000
01:06:41,288 –> 01:06:43,657
[lina]: to complete this sentence home is where

1001
01:06:46,353 –> 01:06:49,278
[molly_crabapple]: home is where you go and the
ship goes down

1002
01:06:53,004 –> 01:06:53,906
[lina]: that’s such a molly

1003
01:06:53,973 –> 01:06:54,133
[molly_crabapple]: yeah

1004
01:06:54,027 –> 01:06:54,388
[lina]: answer

1005
01:06:54,717 –> 01:06:55,301
[molly_crabapple]: it’s true though

1006
01:06:55,370 –> 01:07:01,423
[lina]: um and it is true the second
question is if you had to leave your

1007
01:07:01,463 –> 01:07:04,208
[lina]: home and take one belonging with you
as a memory what would it be

1008
01:07:05,423 –> 01:07:11,335
[molly_crabapple]: oh my god one belonging m so
i had these sketch books that when i

1009
01:07:11,375 –> 01:07:15,340
[molly_crabapple]: was seventeen and i went away from
home the first time i had this like

1010
01:07:15,420 –> 01:07:20,398
[molly_crabapple]: book that i was like my diary
and also my first good drawings as all

1011
01:07:20,438 –> 01:07:24,366
[molly_crabapple]: my drawings before that were bad i
think i would probably take that because it

1012
01:07:24,387 –> 01:07:26,511
[molly_crabapple]: was this thing from such a formative
moment in my life

1013
01:07:30,140 –> 01:07:34,706
[lina]: beautiful what’s one piece of advice you
would give to a young refugee who’s trying

1014
01:07:34,766 –> 01:07:36,388
[lina]: to find belonging in a new place

1015
01:07:38,333 –> 01:07:43,905
[molly_crabapple]: now i sometimes feel that i feel
like not too equipped to do

1016
01:07:43,830 –> 01:07:44,407
[lina]: yeah

1017
01:07:43,965 –> 01:07:48,913
[molly_crabapple]: this but i’m just going to try
i think that when you’re an outsider for

1018
01:07:48,993 –> 01:07:54,102
[molly_crabapple]: whatever reasons often the people that you
can relate to well or other outsiders and

1019
01:07:54,122 –> 01:07:58,951
[molly_crabapple]: that even if they’re not necessarily the
exact same identity as you i think that

1020
01:08:00,443 –> 01:08:08,688
[molly_crabapple]: there there is a certain unity of
people that are kept outside of a system

1021
01:08:08,748 –> 01:08:12,216
[molly_crabapple]: and so perhaps what i would say
if i was talking to i don’t know

1022
01:08:12,256 –> 01:08:15,942
[molly_crabapple]: like a seventeen year old you know
let’s say refuge as i would say look

1023
01:08:16,002 –> 01:08:20,169
[molly_crabapple]: for the other people that have also
been kept outside of the system even if

1024
01:08:20,189 –> 01:08:24,037
[molly_crabapple]: they’re not necessarily in a syrian you
know of gone or you know whatever your

1025
01:08:24,158 –> 01:08:25,040
[molly_crabapple]: specific background

1026
01:08:24,930 –> 01:08:25,710
[lina]: yeah

1027
01:08:25,160 –> 01:08:28,238
[molly_crabapple]: is you might have more in common
with them than you think

1028
01:08:32,010 –> 01:08:36,838
[lina]: that’s great advice my next question is
if you i mean i think this is

1029
01:08:36,858 –> 01:08:39,863
[lina]: going to be new york but if
you choose a different home town that you

1030
01:08:39,943 –> 01:08:41,966
[lina]: relate to you can choose wherever you
want

1031
01:08:41,793 –> 01:08:41,995
[molly_crabapple]: yeah

1032
01:08:42,166 –> 01:08:42,667
[lina]: but give

1033
01:08:42,541 –> 01:08:42,682
[molly_crabapple]: yeah

1034
01:08:42,727 –> 01:08:47,096
[lina]: us a list of three on pected
places that people must visit in the place

1035
01:08:47,136 –> 01:08:48,358
[lina]: that you call your home town

1036
01:08:48,583 –> 01:08:55,013
[molly_crabapple]: my god so um three unexpected places
people must visit in new york city okay

1037
01:08:55,114 –> 01:09:00,142
[molly_crabapple]: so there’s this boxing gym slash cultural
center in the bronx called me throw that

1038
01:09:00,322 –> 01:09:06,312
[molly_crabapple]: had these amazing concerts they bring like
old porterican musicians from the island there and

1039
01:09:06,713 –> 01:09:11,561
[molly_crabapple]: they sing like old school music like
mountain music you know and everyone dances and

1040
01:09:11,601 –> 01:09:15,758
[molly_crabapple]: it’s so fun it’s like so cheap
and yeah go to mis throw that’s my

1041
01:09:15,819 –> 01:09:22,718
[molly_crabapple]: first place um let’s see b n
h dairy which is this really cool place

1042
01:09:22,858 –> 01:09:27,325
[molly_crabapple]: it’s like an old school coacher dairy
restaurant but it’s run by an egyptian guy

1043
01:09:28,147 –> 01:09:29,108
[molly_crabapple]: and it has

1044
01:09:29,340 –> 01:09:29,360
[lina]: m

1045
01:09:29,529 –> 01:09:31,152
[molly_crabapple]: the best ever

1046
01:09:30,952 –> 01:09:31,500
[lina]: kay

1047
01:09:32,959 –> 01:09:37,829
[molly_crabapple]: ah egg and cheese you girl egg
and cheese like so greasy and so good

1048
01:09:37,929 –> 01:09:44,793
[molly_crabapple]: right then the third place that i
would say is i think you should walk

1049
01:09:44,833 –> 01:09:50,745
[molly_crabapple]: down the main drag of bay bridge
because it’s like every single people from every

1050
01:09:50,785 –> 01:09:54,832
[molly_crabapple]: single arab country are there with their
awesome businesses so there’s like you know you

1051
01:09:54,872 –> 01:09:58,538
[molly_crabapple]: get like palestine and bakery and then
you can you know like eat like man

1052
01:09:58,738 –> 01:10:03,166
[molly_crabapple]: food and then you can like smoke
chicha with this year and and you know

1053
01:10:03,346 –> 01:10:07,132
[molly_crabapple]: then there’s like the palestinian baldy the
palestinian grocery store but which and then you

1054
01:10:07,293 –> 01:10:10,879
[molly_crabapple]: like a morockin place and it’s it’s
just like it’s such like a feast being

1055
01:10:10,919 –> 01:10:13,663
[molly_crabapple]: there i love that i love that
place i learned to drive and bridge and

1056
01:10:13,804 –> 01:10:18,011
[molly_crabapple]: so i would always i was a
very bad student so took me a long

1057
01:10:18,091 –> 01:10:22,638
[molly_crabapple]: time to get my license a lot
of lessons and every i really got to

1058
01:10:22,678 –> 01:10:28,098
[molly_crabapple]: know that particular like strip of the
arab community there and i recommend everyone visit

1059
01:10:28,179 –> 01:10:28,239
[molly_crabapple]: it

1060
01:10:31,680 –> 01:10:36,247
[lina]: that’s really wonderful and we’ll have all
i’m gonna look all this stuff up and

1061
01:10:36,287 –> 01:10:39,813
[lina]: we’ll put links in the notes so
everybody who goes to new york can go

1062
01:10:39,873 –> 01:10:44,650
[lina]: to these places that molly loves my
next question is what ish tastes like home

1063
01:10:44,710 –> 01:10:44,973
[lina]: to you

1064
01:10:45,063 –> 01:10:51,903
[molly_crabapple]: yeah yeah so it’s interesting like because
new york has so much immigrant food right

1065
01:10:51,943 –> 01:10:58,325
[molly_crabapple]: you know in some ways that’s you
think like okay what would be the new

1066
01:10:58,345 –> 01:11:01,350
[molly_crabapple]: york dish however there is one dish
that is our dish that no one else

1067
01:11:01,410 –> 01:11:04,275
[molly_crabapple]: fucking does it anyone else who says
they do it their liars don’t

1068
01:11:04,200 –> 01:11:04,462
[lina]: yeah

1069
01:11:04,335 –> 01:11:08,882
[molly_crabapple]: believe them especially not chicago people sorry
lina and that is pizza we invent

1070
01:11:09,012 –> 01:11:09,153
[lina]: ah

1071
01:11:09,163 –> 01:11:09,824
[molly_crabapple]: good pizza

1072
01:11:10,050 –> 01:11:10,251
[lina]: yeah

1073
01:11:10,185 –> 01:11:14,612
[molly_crabapple]: and no one else can do pizza
all of their pizza is failures a delicious

1074
01:11:14,812 –> 01:11:15,654
[molly_crabapple]: slice of like

1075
01:11:15,793 –> 01:11:15,896
[lina]: ah

1076
01:11:15,994 –> 01:11:21,507
[molly_crabapple]: raise like one dollar pizza like dripping
with golden grease on a paper that is

1077
01:11:21,548 –> 01:11:22,718
[molly_crabapple]: what you want that is new york

1078
01:11:24,120 –> 01:11:26,431
[lina]: yeah i completely

1079
01:11:25,953 –> 01:11:26,195
[molly_crabapple]: oh

1080
01:11:26,531 –> 01:11:26,833
[lina]: agree

1081
01:11:27,792 –> 01:11:27,813
[molly_crabapple]: h

1082
01:11:29,281 –> 01:11:33,996
[lina]: i do not have loyalty to chicago
pizza but but yes new york pizza is

1083
01:11:34,056 –> 01:11:34,498
[lina]: the pizza

1084
01:11:34,383 –> 01:11:34,750
[molly_crabapple]: oh

1085
01:11:35,660 –> 01:11:39,227
[lina]: so my final question is especially for
you as a writer i really wanted to

1086
01:11:39,267 –> 01:11:43,174
[lina]: know your answer is what’s a book
or books if you’d like that you love

1087
01:11:43,234 –> 01:11:45,398
[lina]: and have recommended the most to your
friends

1088
01:11:45,913 –> 01:11:48,778
[molly_crabapple]: and it always changes right because i
read a lot and

1089
01:11:49,181 –> 01:11:49,324
[lina]: yeah

1090
01:11:49,259 –> 01:11:53,958
[molly_crabapple]: i am you know you read and
then like you you fall in love i

1091
01:11:53,998 –> 01:11:58,406
[molly_crabapple]: mean there’s like a few books i
am you read arabic because i read i

1092
01:11:58,466 –> 01:12:01,912
[molly_crabapple]: read it in arabic but it would
be taebsahes

1093
01:12:01,680 –> 01:12:01,981
[lina]: yeah

1094
01:12:02,953 –> 01:12:07,922
[molly_crabapple]: season of migration to the north is
i think like the post colonial novel and

1095
01:12:08,122 –> 01:12:11,446
[molly_crabapple]: i want to get too much into
the plot because it will spoil for you

1096
01:12:11,646 –> 01:12:19,775
[molly_crabapple]: but it is an amazing book about
like sedan and england and how like everyone

1097
01:12:19,856 –> 01:12:22,440
[molly_crabapple]: is everyone is kind of messed up
but it’s just it’s a great book we

1098
01:12:22,640 –> 01:12:26,767
[molly_crabapple]: read that but then one book that
i think is relevant for what we were

1099
01:12:26,827 –> 01:12:31,734
[molly_crabapple]: talking about about syria and how people
were um a lot of people you tought

1100
01:12:31,754 –> 01:12:36,722
[molly_crabapple]: would support you didn’t because of weird
stupid loyalties they had and sort of team

1101
01:12:36,802 –> 01:12:43,336
[molly_crabapple]: mindset is a book by victor serge
called memoirs of revolutionary because victor serge he

1102
01:12:43,396 –> 01:12:49,583
[molly_crabapple]: was a french born russian anarchist who
joined the bolsheviks and then

1103
01:12:49,470 –> 01:12:49,697
[lina]: ye

1104
01:12:50,144 –> 01:12:56,947
[molly_crabapple]: later realized that the bolsheviks were becoming
you know authoritarian and basically murdering all of

1105
01:12:57,007 –> 01:13:02,853
[molly_crabapple]: the they’re murdering the revolution and doing
all of the terrific stuff and he sided

1106
01:13:02,913 –> 01:13:10,015
[molly_crabapple]: with trotsky and was exiled to central
asia and then um finally escaped to western

1107
01:13:10,095 –> 01:13:14,038
[molly_crabapple]: europe and basically lived the rest of
his life in the shadow of selinus persecution

1108
01:13:14,118 –> 01:13:21,656
[molly_crabapple]: until he died and paid very very
dearly for breaking with breaking with the soviet

1109
01:13:21,737 –> 01:13:28,564
[molly_crabapple]: union and i think first he’s a
stunningly beautiful writer but second of all the

1110
01:13:28,624 –> 01:13:36,335
[molly_crabapple]: way that he describes cost of really
believing something then realizing that the people you’re

1111
01:13:36,375 –> 01:13:42,275
[molly_crabapple]: with have betrayed it and then speaking
out against that and how much that costs

1112
01:13:42,455 –> 01:13:47,440
[molly_crabapple]: you i think it’s an amazing book
about independent thought and about a sort of

1113
01:13:47,520 –> 01:13:49,322
[molly_crabapple]: internal sense of conscience and i love
that book

1114
01:13:51,720 –> 01:13:56,415
[lina]: oh wonderful we will be looking at
both of these books and also sharing with

1115
01:13:56,455 –> 01:14:01,504
[lina]: the audience and i really really appreciate
your recommendations and all of your time molly

1116
01:14:01,584 –> 01:14:06,993
[lina]: today it’s been such a pleasure to
speak with you out home and belongings and

1117
01:14:07,073 –> 01:14:12,342
[lina]: so many other things i really you
know honor our friendship and i feel always

1118
01:14:12,402 –> 01:14:16,609
[lina]: so lucky to know you and you’ve
stood with so many people and so i

1119
01:14:16,689 –> 01:14:22,438
[lina]: thank you all of your bravery and
your act of trying to undo um and

1120
01:14:23,080 –> 01:14:26,405
[lina]: undo the erasiar of so many things
just came up so many times in the

1121
01:14:26,445 –> 01:14:30,492
[lina]: different in different ways in your work
and in this conversation today so thank you

1122
01:14:30,632 –> 01:14:34,919
[lina]: so much and we’re waiting for your
third book and to be able to learn

1123
01:14:35,019 –> 01:14:38,946
[lina]: more and and always looking at your
work to be inspired and i hope that

1124
01:14:39,006 –> 01:14:40,328
[lina]: we can see each other very soon

1125
01:14:40,423 –> 01:14:44,497
[molly_crabapple]: they got im different this is i
feel like my heart feels really full thank

1126
01:14:44,537 –> 01:14:46,340
[molly_crabapple]: you so much i always i

1127
01:14:46,410 –> 01:14:46,430
[lina]: m

1128
01:14:46,421 –> 01:14:49,787
[molly_crabapple]: always adore spending time with you and
i can’t wait to see you again

1129
01:14:49,582 –> 01:14:49,602
[lina]: a

1130
01:14:50,148 –> 01:14:52,191
[molly_crabapple]: and in new york over pizza

1131
01:14:55,214 –> 01:14:55,861
[lina]: thank you molly

1132
01:14:56,073 –> 01:14:57,544
[molly_crabapple]: thank you so much.